Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[makecry]

You can't judge their performance or pace at all- McLaren are helpless here really until Honda have the fix.

It's just a real nightmare for them.

Wonder how Alonso and Peter Prod feels. Bust their a$$, try their bust but all of that is useless because Honda for all it's resources can't produce a decent PU.

But I hope today's problem was because of the oil tank. Maybe the oil didn't have enough pressure to lubricate the components probably and that led to a shutdown to avoid damage? Idk.

[GoranF1]

So Honda monday problem

-Design of oil tank(interior)
-Inside the tank baffels do not pick up oil at high G as they should, cousing pressure drop.
-At the circuit only a small fix is possible
-Honda saw problem during film day
-Hasegawa says problem not big, can be fixed

Sorry Goran what is an Interior oil tank? Is this where oil collects after lubricating/cooling

In a fully pressurised (no splash lubrication) ICE there is a scavenge system (pump & collection area) and an oil tank with a pressurisation pump to feed the engine, with an oil cooler between the 2 systems.

I honestly dont know, just sharing here what Hasegawa said for Japan media.

[AMG.Tzan]

Mclaren has a history with fuel/oil pump problems...i remember 2012 with Hamilton and Button having lost 2-3 wins and podiums because of this...and also Raikkonen in 2005!! So maybe this hasn't only to do with Honda!!

[daren_p]

So Honda monday problem

-Design of oil tank(interior)
-Inside the tank baffels do not pick up oil at high G as they should, cousing pressure drop.
-At the circuit only a small fix is possible
-Honda saw problem during film day
-Hasegawa says problem not big, can be fixed

Sorry Goran what is an Interior oil tank? Is this where oil collects after lubricating/cooling

In a fully pressurised (no splash lubrication) ICE there is a scavenge system (pump & collection area) and an oil tank with a pressurisation pump to feed the engine, with an oil cooler between the 2 systems.

I would assume they were referring to the interior design/ internal baffles (not an interior oil tank) & them not being designed properly, which is leading to oil pickup starvation under high g loads.

[godlameroso]

Guess changing from a simple tank to a more complex shape has done Honda in
Copying the Merc engine seems to be an absolute can of worms


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CO8aXOEWcAALHBx.jpg
http://www.omnicorse.it/img/articoli/ev ... rcedes.jpg

If I know Honda I know their version is even smaller than the Mercedes one in that pic, although by the log manifold I'm guessing that's a 2014 one.

[Del Boy]

This all very confusing?

Half of the information coming from Honda/McLaren is the saying the scavenge pumps are being starved and as these are usually on one side of the engine that agrees with Alonso comments about turning left differently to turning right. In a six cylinder engine typically 3 scavenge pumps (one for each crank throw) and a further valve train scavenge pump. I don't know how the turbo bearing oil is managed but assume it goes directly back to the oil tank.
The other half of information is that oil tank is the wrong shape, the oil tank is typically triangular (hypotenuse at bottom) to allow air to settle out, with the pick up at the bottom. It receives oil from the scavenge pumps . At the bottom of the oil tank oil is sent to a cooler and then pressurised into the engine and turbo bearings.

The oil pan is inside the engine and it is where the scavenge pumps collect oil from - If these parts are the wrong shape, it could affect the whole of the engine architecture and probably going to take 2 weeks to fix
The oil tank is outside the ICE and made of CF and can be refabricated in 2 days

Anybody got any thoughts?

[Joseki]

A member of this forum @joseki who is on track says engine(when runing) sounds alot better than last year...but he says engine is almost all the time detuned alot....says light on rear crash structure is on at half of main straight.

I can confirm. Regarding the sound I also noticed that it's not as powerful as the Ferrari or the Mercedes. It didn't "warm" my ear as much as them but it was kinda close to.

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[GoranF1]

So Honda monday problem

-Design of oil tank(interior)
-Inside the tank baffels do not pick up oil at high G as they should, cousing pressure drop.
-At the circuit only a small fix is possible
-Honda saw problem during film day
-Hasegawa says problem not big, can be fixed

Sorry Goran what is an Interior oil tank? Is this where oil collects after lubricating/cooling

In a fully pressurised (no splash lubrication) ICE there is a scavenge system (pump & collection area) and an oil tank with a pressurisation pump to feed the engine, with an oil cooler between the 2 systems.

I would assume they were referring to the interior design/ internal baffles (not an interior oil tank) & them not being designed properly, which is leading to oil pickup starvation under high g loads.

Yes.

[makecry]

Sorry Goran what is an Interior oil tank? Is this where oil collects after lubricating/cooling

In a fully pressurised (no splash lubrication) ICE there is a scavenge system (pump & collection area) and an oil tank with a pressurisation pump to feed the engine, with an oil cooler between the 2 systems.

I would assume they were referring to the interior design/ internal baffles (not an interior oil tank) & them not being designed properly, which is leading to oil pickup starvation under high g loads.

Yes.

So it's safe to assume that it's gonna take some time to fix and next two days gonna be bad too. :/

[PhillipM]

Whilst you might be able to make the new tank quickly, making one that fits in the space and actually finding out what's gone wrong in your simulation for the baffles may take a lot longer.

[makecry]

Whilst you might be able to make the new tank quickly, making one that fits in the space and actually finding out what's gone wrong in your simulation for the baffles may take a lot longer.

Yeah but this is their 3rd PU in 2 days? So it's clearly not ONE tank that has the issue and making a new one isn't going to solve anything because it's the design that's wrong. Amirite?

[daren_p]

Whilst you might be able to make the new tank quickly, making one that fits in the space and actually finding out what's gone wrong in your simulation for the baffles may take a lot longer.

Yeah but this is their 3rd PU in 2 days? So it's clearly not ONE tank that has the issue and making a new one isn't going to solve anything because it's the design that's wrong. Amirite?

From the reports I saw, I believe their on their second p/u, the one they installed today was the one they removed from the car on the first day of testing.

[PhillipM]

They're probably trying a few quick fixes (more oil, external baffles, etc) in the hope of patching it until they have a new part in their hard - and just swapping the motor when they see the pressure drop.

[Joseki]

F1AT repeted recently that Honda's new engine according to their sources is still highly unreliable and underpowered. I think they are right once again.
As many other already said I can't believe Honda is unable to design an oil tank. There's no excuse, it's pure incompetence.

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[GoranF1]

F1AT repeted recently that Honda's new engine according to their sources is still highly unreliable and underpowered. I think they are right once again.
As many other already said I can't believe Honda is unable to design an oil tank. There's no excuse, it's pure incompetence.

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Honda did said that AUS spec will have much more power.