Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[gruntguru]

With such system you are limited to 1g acceleration. Probably F1 cars reach that while pulling into the pits.

If you need the direction and the magnitude of the resultant force, you can't even achieve 1G acceleration on this rig. OTOH the "direction" of a 1G acceleration is only 45* to the vertical and a rig like this can simulate the "direction" of any lateral G force you care to name as long as it can tilt from 0* - 90* from the usual position.

What I wanted to say is that while you can simulate certain forces, the results are not the same. In the real track case the engine isn't tilted (or it is the same as the car) while the one on the rig is being tilted heavily. And as you said, one doesen't get the same result with tilting engine 45 degrees "forward" or in the real case brake with a force of 1G. The fluids (oil in this case) will behave differently.

Not so different. As long as the angle is right, the only difference is the test bench will always have a resultant of 1G whereas on track the resultant is perhaps 5G. Air separation will be more rapid under the higher G load so the test bench case would be conservative and produce a safe result.

ALO said he had to brake early to get around the problem, so I assume the (oil pickup?) problem was during the acceleration phase.

I would assume braking phase. Braking earlier allows Alonso to reduce the peak G force experienced.

[Craigy]

One question that's always bugging me is:
Isn't McLaren Honda having the same sort of problem with the engine being developed in Japan, that Toyota had with their development in Germany? I mean, wouldn't a factory in the UK benefit their integration by like a lot?

They've got a UK base in Milton Keynes http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/126317

It's not busy. I live 5 minutes from there, the car parks are empty most of the time.

[PhillipM]

I was at montmelo today, McLaren d rating just before caixa sign, 600 meters before first corner rear LEDs flashing

Ouch. Maybe that's proof they have a more efficient combustion concept and that it is really hurting their energy recovery.

He's lifting and coasting to reduce the peak g-forces until they're sure they've sorted the oil issue rather than the tweaks they've done.

[DiogoBrand]

I was at montmelo today, McLaren d rating just before caixa sign, 600 meters before first corner rear LEDs flashing

Ouch. Maybe that's proof they have a more efficient combustion concept and that it is really hurting their energy recovery.

He's lifting and coasting to reduce the peak g-forces until they're sure they've sorted the oil issue rather than the tweaks they've done.

If he's doing 1.22,xxx times even when lifting and coasting, maybe their car and engine aren't that bad...

[muzzytt]

Doesn't sound too healthy here

https://twitter.com/publogic/status/836887591966420994

You can hear a pop as it comes out of corner then drops some cylinders...

Wasnt this stof ?

[downforcemax]

Ouch. Maybe that's proof they have a more efficient combustion concept and that it is really hurting their energy recovery.

Would that mean less recovery?


It os perhaps a stupid question, but I thought lean combustion was rich in gasses and subsequently, good for turbine harvesting.

The more efficient the combustion process is the less energy the exhaust gasses will have if I understand it correctly. More of the total energy is given to the ICE leaving less energy in the exhaust flow to be harvested.

Edit: I think Hasagawa said that one of the challenges of improving the ICE efficiency was that less exhaust energy was available and that this would require a turbine redesign.

u


qoute:The more efficient the combustion process is the less energy the exhaust gasses will have if I understand it correctly. More of the total energy is given to the ICE leaving less energy in the exhaust flow to be harvested.

doesn't it more works like this
The more efficient the combustion process is, the more expansion of combustion gasses you have, so you harvest more more gasses and deliver more power to the rest of the pu

combustion and thus the creating of power happens only once,after that you can only us the expanded gasses, the more efficient the combustion is, the more gasses you can recycle and use again,

with not a efficient the combustion you will burn less fuel so you wil have less expanding gasses, and gasses that are full of unburned fuel, but those gasses will not go in a second combustion process, so its not good

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/f1-tech- ... -ignition/


if you would create a additional combustion after the first one in the 1.6 chamber, and you will reignite the wast gasses/fuel with more air, you will have created the first 1.6 turbo piston combustion engine /combustion turbine hybrid, would be quite special i think

[Redragon]

Too expensive and limited returns, what they do now is fine. A day or two extra in delievery time is all.

Japan is 9 hours ahead that Uk no even one day of delay.

[godlameroso]

It's strange, when an air fuel mixture is ignited, the reaction actually loses some mass, which is converted to energy. So this reduced mass is creating energy by increasing its volume. Kind of counter productive don't you think? Makes having a turbo all the more sense when you think of it like that. What better way to compensate for the lost mass than by adding more mass?

[Nickel]

I was at montmelo today, McLaren d rating just before caixa sign, 600 meters before first corner rear LEDs flashing

Ouch. Maybe that's proof they have a more efficient combustion concept and that it is really hurting their energy recovery.

He's lifting and coasting to reduce the peak g-forces until they're sure they've sorted the oil issue rather than the tweaks they've done.

Flashing red light indicates energy recovery, not necessarily lift and coast.

If the TC has excess energy available for harvesting, the mguh will do so and the rain light will flash. My understand is that this comes at the cost of a little bit of hp, therefore reduced acceleration. All cars will exhibit this at the end of long straits. It doesn't mean they're off throttle half a km before the corner.

[Lucky]

RolledaNsx:

Honda's 2017 PU is almost like 2016 MB PU in design.
The Oil Tank is like the MB one.(in the front of engine around compressor intake).Very hard to get right.(and a shaker-rig dyno wouldn't of found the problem during heavy braking and turning left G's)
So for the moment they are using a band-aid fix while they redesign it.
Honda is just behind everybody else with Pre-Chamber CC.What they are dealing with now is that the ICE is so effiecent that it is now hurting ER(less heat in the exhaust)
So expect a new Turbine by April/May and that explains why MB went with Vortex Exhaust(keeps flow from touching pipe sides)this year.(better effiecent ICE means less heat in exhaust,so design a exhaust pipe that keeps most of the heat from escaping to get to the turbine=more ER)

there was the third year...............

[PhillipM]

Flashing red light indicates energy recovery, not necessarily lift and coast. .

And you don't think the PU would recovery energy at the prime stage where it costs them nothing, especially given lift and coast is used for fuel saving to start with?
Alonso himself said he was lifting early because of the oil tank.

[mclaren111]

GPUpdate:

Hasegawa: "Obviously we are not happy to have trouble, but this is a test and we are feeling sorry about both drivers," said Hasegawa, who confirmed that a solution for Monday's oil problem has been found.

Good news

[restless]

GPUpdate:

Hasegawa: "Obviously we are not happy to have trouble, but this is a test and we are feeling sorry about both drivers," said Hasegawa, who confirmed that a solution for Monday's oil problem has been found.

Good news

He can hope a solution is found. But until its checked and double checked on the track no way to know it works

[Tommy Cookers]

Ouch. Maybe that's proof they have a more efficient combustion concept and that it is really hurting their energy recovery.

Would that mean less recovery?
It os perhaps a stupid question, but I thought lean combustion was rich in gasses and subsequently, good for turbine harvesting.

The more efficient the combustion process is the less energy the exhaust gasses will have if I understand it correctly. More of the total energy is given to the ICE leaving less energy in the exhaust flow to be harvested.
Edit: I think Hasagawa said that one of the challenges of improving the ICE efficiency was that less exhaust energy was available and that this would require a turbine redesign.

afaik (as I like to say from time to time) ........
combustion efficiency is about 95% in all engines (unless they are using rich mixture)
the issue is eg in normal engines that the mixture cannot be very lean without combustion efficiency falling below eg 95%

Mahle claims better combustion not more efficient combustion
they mean that they can go very lean without the combustion efficiency falling below eg 95%

going very lean means our F1 fixed fuel rate/heat rate is diluted by the extra air in the cylinder
there's more mass of gas so its temperature is lower so less heat energy needs to be taken by the coolant
less heat taken means more heat energy left in the cylinder to work on the large mass of gas, so producing more crankshaft power

higher boost is needed to provide the greater mass of air to make the mixture very lean
so exhaust pressure is higher (and there's greater mass), creating more power at the turbine (despite the gas being less hot)
but of course more compressor power is taken
ie there is no gain in recovery

the big question is how much heat dilution/leaning is being used
ie broadly, how much boost is being used

imo
the heat dilution engine is an engine further downsized (beyond turbo downsizing) in heat loss to coolant terms
but because of eg the higher gas pressure throughout compression, not further downsized in friction terms

[Postmoe]

Would that mean less recovery?
It os perhaps a stupid question, but I thought lean combustion was rich in gasses and subsequently, good for turbine harvesting.

The more efficient the combustion process is the less energy the exhaust gasses will have if I understand it correctly. More of the total energy is given to the ICE leaving less energy in the exhaust flow to be harvested.
Edit: I think Hasagawa said that one of the challenges of improving the ICE efficiency was that less exhaust energy was available and that this would require a turbine redesign.

afaik (as I like to say from time to time) ........
combustion efficiency is about 95% in all engines (unless they are using rich mixture)
the issue is eg in normal engines that the mixture cannot be very lean without combustion efficiency falling below eg 95%

Mahle claims better combustion not more efficient combustion
they mean that they can go very lean without the combustion efficiency falling below eg 95%

going very lean means our F1 fixed fuel rate/heat rate is diluted by the extra air in the cylinder
there's more mass of gas so its temperature is lower so less heat energy needs to be taken by the coolant
less heat taken means more heat energy left in the cylinder to work on the large mass of gas, so producing more crankshaft power

higher boost is needed to provide the greater mass of air to make the mixture very lean
so exhaust pressure is higher (and there's greater mass), creating more power at the turbine (despite the gas being less hot)
but of course more compressor power is taken
ie there is no gain in recovery

the big question is how much heat dilution/leaning is being used
ie broadly, how much boost is being used

imo
the heat dilution engine is an engine further downsized (beyond turbo downsizing) in heat loss to coolant terms
but because of eg the higher gas pressure throughout compression, not further downsized in friction terms

Thank you for this brief and nonetheless very thorough explanation. Now I understand why "lean combustion" has a such a positive effect during races: less fuel weight, more consistent and even higher power output.

But, if I understood you correctly,that means saturdays must be faced in a very different manner in terms of PU management. The same engine must be able to maximise harvesting in warm up lap and then potentially go crazy during qualy lap.