2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Andres125sx]

If anyone was expecting McHonda to perform problem free winter testing, IMHO there are two options, you were expecting McHonda to be conservative (aka giving up from fighting for titles or victories), or you were expecting McHonda to make a miracle. This is engineering, if you´re expecting a miracle you´re on the wrong forum and sport

So, you imply that, Mercedes achieved a miracle in 2014 Winter Testing and Ferrari achieved their miracle in 2015 Winter Testing. Coz, bringing a high performance PU which is also reliable and team ran without any issues, equals to miracle. Renault achieved it too, albeit quite late and at In Season testing in Barcelona 2016. Hence, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault have all achieved it! When will Honda do?

Did Mercedes, Ferrari, and/or Renault have to compensate late PU development?

Mercedes started developing theirs several seasons before the real PU was fitted into the car, so no miracle, simple engineering. If you want to be the best, your first step must be working harder than the rest. That´s what Mercedes did, engineering, no miracles there.

Ferrari and Renault didn´t have to compensate for a late PU development either, both are racing since day 1 of these PUs, and even so neither of them are matching Mercedes PU perfomance, so no miracle here either.

But Honda started developing their PU later than the rest, and since they can´t invest more money than Mercedes because the germans invested around a Billion on this PU, they can only assume risks to compensate that late develpment, wich is what they´ve done. But obviously risky routes does imply reliability problems to be solved

So basically, what I said, if Honda problems does surprise anyone, that person must be expecting a) Honda taking a conservative route to avoid reliability issues, wich means giving up about matching Mercedes perfomance, or b) he was expecting a miracle (assuming risks and not suffering any reliability issue)

[Alonso Fan]

If anyone was expecting McHonda to perform problem free winter testing, IMHO there are two options, you were expecting McHonda to be conservative (aka giving up from fighting for titles or victories), or you were expecting McHonda to make a miracle. This is engineering, if you´re expecting a miracle you´re on the wrong forum and sport

So, you imply that, Mercedes achieved a miracle in 2014 Winter Testing and Ferrari achieved their miracle in 2015 Winter Testing. Coz, bringing a high performance PU which is also reliable and team ran without any issues, equals to miracle. Renault achieved it too, albeit quite late and at In Season testing in Barcelona 2016. Hence, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault have all achieved it! When will Honda do?

Mercedes started developing their PU 2 years before they ran it in races. even so, in 2014 they had many engine related issues, namely Australia, Singapore and abu dhabi spring to mind. oh yeah and Canada. no miracle there. Take into account that they have not had a major change in engine architecture since then and have been exploiting the potential of the original engine and upgrading and adding to the original concept, then you can understand that they had bullet proof reliability in 2015. but the problems were back in 2016 don't forget. just because they have a robust testing program doesn't mean they're gonna be perfect for the rest of the season. Mercedes is still working on the same concept since 2012 and it has proven fruitful for them. they have the best engine hands down. As for Ferrari, they have also been working on the same concept (fundamentally) and have been perfecting it since.

so now you (not specifically you, but those who generally tend to slate McLaren and Honda all the time) expect Honda to change the complete fundamentals of the engine, change to a complete new philosophy and architecture which they have been developing for, say, at most a year, and complete a full testing program with 100 laps per day, on full power and no issues?

I would expect them to be as good as the Mercedes engine was in 2013 (still under development) since the same amount of time has been spent on this new Honda engine concept as Mercedes had spent by 2013 on their engine. but no, they're expected to perform against cars who are now 3 years ahead in development (theoretically) and they're supposed to be bullet proof and quick?

get real

Ferrari and Mercedes (and now Renault too) had time on their hands compared to Honda. they had time to do some good engineering, not make miracles. Honda have said that their current engine has the potential of the 2016 Mercedes. if that potential is realised and those words lived up to, that would be a miracle, given that they would have achieved it in such a short amount of time

[AMG.Tzan]

If anyone was expecting McHonda to perform problem free winter testing, IMHO there are two options, you were expecting McHonda to be conservative (aka giving up from fighting for titles or victories), or you were expecting McHonda to make a miracle. This is engineering, if you´re expecting a miracle you´re on the wrong forum and sport

So, you imply that, Mercedes achieved a miracle in 2014 Winter Testing and Ferrari achieved their miracle in 2015 Winter Testing. Coz, bringing a high performance PU which is also reliable and team ran without any issues, equals to miracle. Renault achieved it too, albeit quite late and at In Season testing in Barcelona 2016. Hence, Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault have all achieved it! When will Honda do?

Mercedes started developing their PU 2 years before they ran it in races. even so, in 2014 they had many engine related issues, namely Australia, Singapore and abu dhabi spring to mind. oh yeah and Canada. no miracle there. Take into account that they have not had a major change in engine architecture since then and have been exploiting the potential of the original engine and upgrading and adding to the original concept, then you can understand that they had bullet proof reliability in 2015. but the problems were back in 2016 don't forget. just because they have a robust testing program doesn't mean they're gonna be perfect for the rest of the season. Mercedes is still working on the same concept since 2012 and it has proven fruitful for them. they have the best engine hands down. As for Ferrari, they have also been working on the same concept (fundamentally) and have been perfecting it since.

so now you expect Honda to change the complete fundamentals of the engine, change to a complete new philosophy and architecture which they have been developing for, say, at most a year, and complete a full testing program with 100 laps per day, on full power and no issues?

I would expect them to be as good as the Mercedes engine was in 2013 (still under development) since the same amount of time has been spent on this new Honda engine concept as Mercedes had spent by 2013 on their engine. but no, they're expected to perform against cars who are now 3 years ahead in development (theoretically) and they're supposed to be bullet proof and quick?

get real

Ferrari and Mercedes (and now Renault too) had time on their hands compared to Honda. they had time to do some good engineering, not make miracles. Honda have said that their current engine has the potential of the 2016 Mercedes. if that potential is realised and those words lived up to, that would be a miracle.

We are talking about a Formula 1 team here...there are no excuses!! Renault was awful in 2014...Ferrari too!! Both did something!! Recruited people...Honda wants everything in-house!! You can't compete against giants using only your own people specially when your engine is being built in Japan and your chassis in UK...it's not 1985!! That's what took Ferrari to the front in the 2000s, Red Bull in the 2010s and Mercedes today!! After all everyone knows what Mercedes's strengths in the engine department are...split turbine-compressor, jet ignition and all these kind of stuff! And i am one of those who wants to see Mclaren up there battling...it's just embarassing for such a huge team!

[santos]

Mercedes started developing their PU 2 years before they ran it in races. even so, in 2014 they had many engine related issues, namely Australia, Singapore and abu dhabi spring to mind. oh yeah and Canada. no miracle there. Take into account that they have not had a major change in engine architecture since then and have been exploiting the potential of the original engine and upgrading and adding to the original concept, then you can understand that they had bullet proof reliability in 2015. but the problems were back in 2016 don't forget. just because they have a robust testing program doesn't mean they're gonna be perfect for the rest of the season. Mercedes is still working on the same concept since 2012 and it has proven fruitful for them. they have the best engine hands down. As for Ferrari, they have also been working on the same concept (fundamentally) and have been perfecting it since.

so now you expect Honda to change the complete fundamentals of the engine, change to a complete new philosophy and architecture which they have been developing for, say, at most a year, and complete a full testing program with 100 laps per day, on full power and no issues?

I would expect them to be as good as the Mercedes engine was in 2013 (still under development) since the same amount of time has been spent on this new Honda engine concept as Mercedes had spent by 2013 on their engine. but no, they're expected to perform against cars who are now 3 years ahead in development (theoretically) and they're supposed to be bullet proof and quick?

get real

Ferrari and Mercedes (and now Renault too) had time on their hands compared to Honda. they had time to do some good engineering, not make miracles. Honda have said that their current engine has the potential of the 2016 Mercedes. if that potential is realised and those words lived up to, that would be a miracle.

I'm sorry, but that excuse could be valid in 2015. How many years people will use that speech to excuse the failure of Honda? They had plenty of time to deliver a propper engine to Mclaren. It could not be winning races already, or look like bullet proof, but it shouldn't be looking like is made of porcelain.

[Alonso Fan]

Mercedes started developing their PU 2 years before they ran it in races. even so, in 2014 they had many engine related issues, namely Australia, Singapore and abu dhabi spring to mind. oh yeah and Canada. no miracle there. Take into account that they have not had a major change in engine architecture since then and have been exploiting the potential of the original engine and upgrading and adding to the original concept, then you can understand that they had bullet proof reliability in 2015. but the problems were back in 2016 don't forget. just because they have a robust testing program doesn't mean they're gonna be perfect for the rest of the season. Mercedes is still working on the same concept since 2012 and it has proven fruitful for them. they have the best engine hands down. As for Ferrari, they have also been working on the same concept (fundamentally) and have been perfecting it since.

so now you expect Honda to change the complete fundamentals of the engine, change to a complete new philosophy and architecture which they have been developing for, say, at most a year, and complete a full testing program with 100 laps per day, on full power and no issues?

I would expect them to be as good as the Mercedes engine was in 2013 (still under development) since the same amount of time has been spent on this new Honda engine concept as Mercedes had spent by 2013 on their engine. but no, they're expected to perform against cars who are now 3 years ahead in development (theoretically) and they're supposed to be bullet proof and quick?

get real

Ferrari and Mercedes (and now Renault too) had time on their hands compared to Honda. they had time to do some good engineering, not make miracles. Honda have said that their current engine has the potential of the 2016 Mercedes. if that potential is realised and those words lived up to, that would be a miracle.

I'm sorry, but that excuse could be valid in 2015. How many years people will use that speech to excuse the failure of Honda? They had plenty of time to deliver a propper engine to Mclaren. It could not be winning races already, or look like bullet proof, but it shouldn't be looking like is made of porcelain.

I am not excusing the failure of Honda. At least I didn't intend to in my post.

I just don't understand why people are so surprised at this. It's almost as though people actually expected the engine to be a merc beater this year, which is nonsense if you think carefully about it

[Andres125sx]

We are talking about a Formula 1 team here...there are no excuses!!

Maybe you didn´t realize, but Mercedes is also a Formula 1 team. Main difference is they´re working on their PU much longer than Honda, so they have an easy advantage wich is VERY difficult to compensate.

Or maybe you think Mercedes don´t know what they´re doing so any other team can simply improve their work and reduce developing times?

Honda is a big and awesome company, but Mercedes is, at least, at their level, so the only way Honda can match Mercedes perfomance reducing development times is investing huge ammounts of money, what they´re doing, and assuming risks, what they´re also doing.

But right now it looks like Mercedes simply did an asthonishing job wich will be hard to match. It´s not that Honda don´t know what they´re doing, but Mercedes also know what they´re doing, their PU is awesome, and improve development rate of a competent and big company is anything but easy

Renault was awful in 2014...Ferrari too!! Both did something!! Recruited people...

So did McHonda. Honda, after 2015, started using different develpment teams wich did include engineers with loads of experience, and some other with young people with fresh ideas. McLaren also made several changes signing in Prodomou, Brown, and got rid of Ron Dennis.

What else do you expect from them?

[fellowhoodlums]

If they use the Melbourne spec engine next week and they get first 2 days of of clean running then i say we'll see where we are.

[santos]

So did McHonda. Honda, after 2015, started using different develpment teams wich did include engineers with loads of experience, and some other with young people with fresh ideas. McLaren also made several changes signing in Prodomou, Brown, and got rid of Ron Dennis.

What else do you expect from them?

I was expecting more. I wasn't expecting that in the third year, during the first test of the season they needed two engines to cover 968km, when Mercedes made 1629km. Last year Mclaren covered 1196km in the first test. Seems that they didn't a god job over the winter.

[Redragon]

So did McHonda. Honda, after 2015, started using different develpment teams wich did include engineers with loads of experience, and some other with young people with fresh ideas. McLaren also made several changes signing in Prodomou, Brown, and got rid of Ron Dennis.

What else do you expect from them?

I was expecting more. I wasn't expecting that in the third year, during the first test of the season they needed two engines to cover 968km, when Mercedes made 1629km. Last year Mclaren covered 1196km in the first test. Seems that they didn't a god job over the winter.

Honda wanted to supply a second team and Mclaren stop them, so the fact they are not running so much it is not only fault of Honda it is also Mclaren fault. So the time they are taking to arrive where they are it is the time they have on their hands. Honda is not the only one to blame on their situation. It is the whole team Mclaren-Honda

[GPR-A duplicate2]

We are talking about a Formula 1 team here...there are no excuses!!

Maybe you didn´t realize, but Mercedes is also a Formula 1 team. Main difference is they´re working on their PU much longer than Honda, so they have an easy advantage wich is VERY difficult to compensate.

Since dinosaurs existed? At the end of 2011, with their F1 team having been royally humiliated, there was too much pressure from Share holders on Daimler to pull out of F1 and you are saying, they were working on for loooooonger. Some idiots started this phrase and other are simply latching on to it, without even verifying the contextual facts. Do you forget the fact that, it was Ferrari who pushed for the 2014 regulation changes, as they were unable to beat Red Bull? Ferrari was so weak on Aero and Monty wanted the F1 to be more Mechanical and hence there was such a strong push from him. Obviously, Ferrari were the ones who were committing to 2014, more than anyone else? What was the result? It's easy to say lot of rubbish now, as an after fact because of the success that Mercedes is enjoying. But back in 2012, when the regulations were getting finalized, no one would bet a penny on Mercedes to succeed. So for once and for all, junk the excuse of "Mercedes were working loooong". By the way, even if someone works longer, success is not guaranteed. It was the quality of work that was done, not the duration that matters. Honda started their work on Hybrid PU from 2013, this is the 5th year, where are they?

Published on Thursday May 16th 2013 - Honda confirms 2015 F1 return as McLaren engine supplier

Shareholder calls on Mercedes to quit F1

Mercedes is no longer the measure of all things in the premium sector," he is quoted as saying by Die Presse.

Speich referred to "a lost decade" for Daimler, and called on the company to follow BMW's recent lead and pull out of Formula One.

His speech reportedly received applause from other shareholders.

[Redragon]

We are talking about a Formula 1 team here...there are no excuses!!

Maybe you didn´t realize, but Mercedes is also a Formula 1 team. Main difference is they´re working on their PU much longer than Honda, so they have an easy advantage wich is VERY difficult to compensate.

Since dinosaurs existed? At the end of 2011, with their F1 team having been royally humiliated, there was too much pressure from Share holders on Daimler to pull out of F1 and you are saying, they were working on for loooooonger. Some idiots started this phrase and other are simply latching on to it, without even verifying the contextual facts. Do you forget the fact that, it was Ferrari who pushed for the 2014 regulation changes, as they were unable to beat Red Bull? Ferrari was so weak on Aero and Monty wanted the F1 to be more Mechanical and hence there was such a strong push from him. Obviously, Ferrari were the ones who were committing to 2014, more than anyone else? What was the result? It's easy to say lot of rubbish now, as an after fact because of the success that Mercedes is enjoying. But back in 2012, when the regulations were getting finalized, no one would bet a penny on Mercedes to succeed. So for once and for all, junk the excuse of "Mercedes were working loooong". By the way, even if someone works longer, success is not guaranteed. It was the quality of work that was done, not the duration that matters.

Shareholder calls on Mercedes to quit F1

Mercedes is no longer the measure of all things in the premium sector," he is quoted as saying by Die Presse.

Speich referred to "a lost decade" for Daimler, and called on the company to follow BMW's recent lead and pull out of Formula One.

His speech reportedly received applause from other shareholders.

Also people forget Honda was last year, 2016 at the level of Ferrari 2015 engine with much more less time of development.

[Phil]

I just don't understand why people are so surprised at this. It's almost as though people actually expected the engine to be a merc beater this year, which is nonsense if you think carefully about it

It's not about creating a Mercedes beater. I think the goal should be (should have been?) to create an engine that is somewhat competitive. The most important aspect however is to show up with an engine that works, doesn't have any major flaws that hampers testing. We saw how that turned out in 2014 with Renault for instance, when the majority of teams running Renault engines had severe problems. That was year 1, so perhaps one could argue that problems were foreseeable given the complexity and that we are no longer dealing with just ICUs but with entire power-units that not only include the ICU, but complex kinetic energy recovery system that are on an entirely new level.

Honda entered in 2015 and has since had 2 full seasons to learn from experience what is required to compete on this level. I understand that the first 2 seasons were unique in that the PUs were limited by tokens and thus created the situation that a potentially faulty or underperforming engine could not be solved or changed unless within what the [available] tokens allowed.

As I said in this or the other topic: We shouldn't just single out Honda here. To some degree, I expect Honda to know their own limits and be competent enough to know what is doable, what they can achieve and to know how far to push limits without going too far. We also have to accept that McLaren has wanted this 'exclusive' partnership and this is surely something that limits Honda as they have much less data they can collect (or that data is limited to one running configuration; that being their engine inside that McLaren). Compare this to say Renault, who supplied 4 teams in 2014 (Caterham, Lotus, RedBull and TR). Even though the Renault PU had issues, by having 4 teams, they at least got to study the data of 4 teams, all running different packages. If I remember correctly, the TR for example had less PU related problems than the RedBull. At the time, I assumed this was due to the tighter packaging of the RedBull compared to the TR. In the case of Honda, this is a problem, because there is effectively only one car.

Another problem I see, is that Honda has changed their configuration quite substantially multiple times now. Effectively, this means that they are starting from something akin to a blank sheet every time. Mercedes however seems to be still running using the same basic configuration they did way back in 2014. And every PU since has been an evolution. Building upon the strengths of the previous iteration and just pushing a bit forward as they progress. This makes them extremely hard to beat. This perhaps also highlights that Honda simply got it wrong the first two times and is now heading on the right path at least to an engine that should be competitive. Or they are still pursuing more exotic yet at the same time more challenging designs that prove rather difficult to get right, hence all the reliability issues they are fighting.

One way or another; Both McLaren and Honda will have to learn the hard way that going for the most ambitious solution perhaps isn't the best idea if you can't get it to work. When it all works, it might prove to be the best engine outthere, but at what cost? If you limit your running, then McLaren can't do its work. The same applies too if McLaren goes too ambitious by perhaps packaging too tightly (and as an example gets the cooling requirements wrong). That can also limit the potential of the engine too.

It would be nice to see both McLaren-Honda end up with an engine that is reliable and proves to be a strong basis for future development. I unfortunately don't see how they will be able to be competitive this year, but with the tokens gone, I hope whatever problems they are facing now, can be solved rather quickly. The question will be, how quick and how many races will it take? It will also be interesting in light of Alonso's contract expiring at the end of the year...

And there is also the point about the lack of sponsors on that McLaren...

[Alonso Fan]

I just don't understand why people are so surprised at this. It's almost as though people actually expected the engine to be a merc beater this year, which is nonsense if you think carefully about it

It's not about creating a Mercedes beater. I think the goal should be (should have been?) to create an engine that is somewhat competitive. The most important aspect however is to show up with an engine that works, doesn't have any major flaws that hampers testing. We saw how that turned out in 2014 with Renault for instance, when the majority of teams running Renault engines had severe problems. That was year 1, so perhaps one could argue that problems were foreseeable given the complexity and that we are no longer dealing with just ICUs but with entire power-units that not only include the ICU, but complex kinetic energy recovery system that are on an entirely new level.

Honda entered in 2015 and has since had 2 full seasons to learn from experience what is required to compete on this level. I understand that the first 2 seasons were unique in that the PUs were limited by tokens and thus created the situation that a potentially faulty or underperforming engine could not be solved or changed unless within what the [available] tokens allowed.

As I said in this or the other topic: We shouldn't just single out Honda here. To some degree, I expect Honda to know their own limits and be competent enough to know what is doable, what they can achieve and to know how far to push limits without going too far. We also have to accept that McLaren has wanted this 'exclusive' partnership and this is surely something that limits Honda as they have much less data they can collect (or that data is limited to one running configuration; that being their engine inside that McLaren). Compare this to say Renault, who supplied 4 teams in 2014 (Caterham, Lotus, RedBull and TR). Even though the Renault PU had issues, by having 4 teams, they at least got to study the data of 4 teams, all running different packages. If I remember correctly, the TR for example had less PU related problems than the RedBull. At the time, I assumed this was due to the tighter packaging of the RedBull compared to the TR. In the case of Honda, this is a problem, because there is effectively only one car.

Another problem I see, is that Honda has changed their configuration quite substantially multiple times now. Effectively, this means that they are starting from something akin to a blank sheet every time. Mercedes however seems to be still running using the same basic configuration they did way back in 2014. And every PU since has been an evolution. Building upon the strengths of the previous iteration and just pushing a bit forward as they progress. This makes them extremely hard to beat. This perhaps also highlights that Honda simply got it wrong the first two times and is now heading on the right path at least to an engine that should be competitive. Or they are still pursuing more exotic yet at the same time more challenging designs that prove rather difficult to get right, hence all the reliability issues they are fighting.

One way or another; Both McLaren and Honda will have to learn the hard way that going for the most ambitious solution perhaps isn't the best idea if you can't get it to work. When it all works, it might prove to be the best engine outthere, but at what cost? If you limit your running, then McLaren can't do its work. The same applies too if McLaren goes too ambitious by perhaps packaging too tightly (and as an example gets the cooling requirements wrong). That can also limit the potential of the engine too.

It would be nice to see both McLaren-Honda end up with an engine that is reliable and proves to be a strong basis for future development. I unfortunately don't see how they will be able to be competitive this year, but with the tokens gone, I hope whatever problems they are facing now, can be solved rather quickly. The question will be, how quick and how many races will it take? It will also be interesting in light of Alonso's contract expiring at the end of the year...

And there is also the point about the lack of sponsors on that McLaren...

You make some excellent and valid points there. I agree that Honda has been starting from a blank sheet and they are doing it again this year. Now that they have realised that their previous concept was fundamentally flawed, let's hope they can build on their current spec and evolve it and learn how to extract the most from it.

They knew that they had much less time than Mercedes when they signed with McLaren. So they went radical and aggressive and they suffered as a result. Who can blame them for trying? What if their radical concept actually worked? What if it was a merc beater out of the box? You can't blame them for trying. If it worked they would have been hailed and worshipped (I know I'm exaggerating but you get the idea). But it didn't work and they were fed to the dogs and absolutely slated. And hence in 2016 they tried to change what they could under the token restriction. Now that the token system has gone, they went for a completely new architecture.

We saw what progress they did make in 1 year of restricted development and that fact still gives me hope for this year and the future.

[noname]

(...) In the case of Honda, this is a problem, because there is effectively only one car. (...)

I am not buying this "lack of data" stuff. Honda and McLaren have to make their engine working in one car only. They do not have to make compromises, or deal with problems, coming from the engine being put into different packages, operated in a different way, different strategies, lubricants, coolants, maintenance, etc.

If they have to - build the dyno replicating the car in the best possible way and test, test and test. Engine after engine, spec after spec. The only limit is how fast you can make new hardware, and how fast you can test it, make conclusion and move forward.

[PhillipM]

It's not about creating a Mercedes beater. I think the goal should be (should have been?) to create an engine that is somewhat competitive. The most important aspect however is to show up with an engine that works, doesn't have any major flaws that hampers testing

That is exactly the wrong way to go about it, it's entirely about creating a Merc beater, the entire point of Mclaren bringing Honda in was to create a Merc beating engine, if they wanted to stick with a second rate reliable motor, they already had that in the customer Merc engine.
Creating a reliable, low power engine to develop from doesn't work, that's why the trophies are all at Merc and not Ferrari or Renault.
There are no prizes for creating a reliable engine that comes second, if they want that then Mclaren can just become a Merc customer team again.