2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Alonso Fan]

https://youtu.be/JZWzWp5yPkk

Current situation.

Well played

[RS200E]

But a peaky engine can make getting the power down difficult, especially in slower corners where you're relying on mechanical grip.

How is it that you seem to suggest that every expert who says that the Honda PU is a problem is wrong??

Havent seen even ONE "expert" saying Honda is peaky! And i can even prove its not peaky!

I wil not search myself but i will reffer to Rossberg Onboard from Monaco. You can see there Mclaren had no problem with stepping on accelerator and neither acceleration was bad into Tunnel. (compared to Merc)
Bad was cornering speed, entry speed, appex speed.

Also You can check comparison from Baku (exit to start straight) initial acceleration is better for Mclaren!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvDj6oIZNeo
0.6 sec they are even. then starting acceleration is McLaren advantage up till roughly 8.5 secs! then Merc gets him!

In every corner there are several aspects including entry speed,, appex speed, exit speed. Speed around the corner is mostly varying, but can be constant as well. besides there is diference also when You should step on power. sometimes its only after corner and not all of these are affected by "peeky engine"!

Yes, the fundamental problem at the rear was the engine.

He mean suspenion. The rear one. No traction in - I will elaborate - SLOW corners! if you understand what i mean - slow is when speed is limited by traction and not power. and that is when power is dosed with accelerator pedal. (its not software!)
There are drivers for that!

I'll state my point for the final time: a chassis cannot be at its full potential with such an underperforming engine.

You can still show half potential! Problem is that Car did not show its potential in areas which are not limited by engine so we cannot even know if in areas which are limited by engine its actually engine which is limiting! it could be as well that both factors were limiting!

Whether a chassis is designed with a fundamental problem like the McLaren did in 2013, you would never know because the Honda engine is so unrefined that it's worse than than any problem that McLaren could have in the fundamental design of the chassis.

You cannot know both of them(engine and chassis)! Also no engineer would design car to underperform in slow corners because engine will be weak!
And as i said previously there are areas which You can see in Videos! Including performance in high speed tracks, like spa and monza which did show that engine is not a lump.

It should not be underestimated how unrefined the Honda has been and also was at the first test of 2017.

Also the argument of performance on tracks with long straights vs tight tracks is flawed, it's not as simple as that and hasn't been for a long time.

Instead of telling flawed It would be better to tell that its too complicated for You... For me (And not only me) its simple and i can easlily understand limiting factors at different points of track ! Its not like those observations are based on laptime ! We indeed watch all aspects of information which are accesible and it is just enough to understand limits of performance.

10/10 for effort kasio but... nope. Pure fantasy.

[HPD]

Mclaren Honda + PETROBRAS (?

The fact is that the marketing area of ​​the team with which Ayrton Senna was a three-time world champion, 1988, 1990 and 1991, negotiates with Petrobras management a sponsorship and development contract for fuel and lubricating oil.


F1 is a platform that Petrobras has been interested in for almost two decades, like most of the world's major oil companies, as it is an exceptional laboratory for the development of fuel technology and lubricating oils for the engine, now the driving force, on account Of the hybrid era, and the transmission. And, of course, the exposure of the brand worldwide provided by F1.

With Mercedes, Williams' partner since 2014, Petrobras has not advanced in the project of researching its own gasoline and sending it to the Germans to test it on the test bench.

Recreating the department

As far as we know that the industry is bottled in the region given the increasing complexity of F1 gasoline will take some time before the Brazilian state power available to Honda shows a first fuel for the test, should go the business.
With regard to lubricating oil exiting the same, it will take, perhaps even as the subject gasoline basically means more performance than the reliability of the equipment, while lubricating oil is very compromising of driving and transmission resistance to Unit.

So if there is an agreement, it will not be this season that McLaren-Honda riders will be able to talk about Petrobras products. The technical difficulties of the Japanese are so great, so basic, that the last thing they would think of doing would be to check which gasoline could represent some more horsepower without compromising the durability of the driving unit.


It is possible that Petrobras management is following this McLaren and Honda drama closely. At least it would be prudent to do so before eventually hammering and signing the contract, whose annual minimum value would not be less than that held with Williams between 2014 and December.

http://globoesporte.globo.com/motor/for ... honda.html

[the EDGE]

https://youtu.be/JZWzWp5yPkk

Current situation.

Well played

I have not laughed so hard in such a long time

[Andres125sx]

So what are the prospects for Honda until 2020 let's say...because engine rules will be V6T with open development until then! Every year Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari are going to get better and better and so the gap will never close if Honda doesn't manage anything special!

And that´s exactly what they´re doing!!!! Or what´re your toughts about this reliability problems?

The source of those problems are exactly Honda approach of trying something special instead of trying the safe route. After two seasons they decided to rebuild their PU completely

So are we going to say...oooh Honda started 3 years later so it's ok??

I must be a bit basic, because I never try to guess what will happen in the future to then guess what will we say

We´ll cross that bridge when we get there

Let's take BMW's example here! Although i know V10s were way less complex than today's PUs but they still had an awful lot of development and in 5 years time they went from 750hp to 950hp which shows you how many gains there were to be made! So BMW entered F1 in 2000...Ferrari had already 5 years of experience with V10s and Renault more than 10 years!! Still BMW managed to become top of the game at least in terms of hp by 2001...they even got some wins against the almighty Ferrari dream team!! My point here is Honda needs to become acceptable...no i don't expect them to win the WCC but at least finish inside the top 5 or even challenge for podiums!!

Exactly, Honda needs to become acceptable, and that´s what they´re doing or at least trying as hard as possible. As you said yourself today´s PUs are way more complex, so developing times are unquestionably longer. But fans don´t usually take this into consideration when talking about manufacturers/teams, even when they say theirselves these PUs are way more complex

With this kind of testing...

... they´re finding the usual teethering problems to solve them before the season start. Or in other words, they´re doing what they´re supposed to do, testing a whole new PU. We all would love Honda building a completely new PU wich performs similar to Mercedes and is bullet proof, but we must keep real, reducing development times while trying to compete with Mercedes will always bring unintended consequences and problems.

The question remains the same tough, will these problems be minor problems wich will be solved before Melbourne and we will see a competitive Honda PU? Or they went too far and the new PU has some fundamental flaws?

Nobody will know before Melbourne, at least ouside Sakura, so please, keep calm and let them do their job before assuming the new PU is crap again.

[adrianjordan]

But a peaky engine can make getting the power down difficult, especially in slower corners where you're relying on mechanical grip.

How is it that you seem to suggest that every expert who says that the Honda PU is a problem is wrong??

Havent seen even ONE "expert" saying Honda is peaky! And i can even prove its not peaky!

I wil not search myself but i will reffer to Rossberg Onboard from Monaco. You can see there Mclaren had no problem with stepping on accelerator and neither acceleration was bad into Tunnel. (compared to Merc)
Bad was cornering speed, entry speed, appex speed.

Also You can check comparison from Baku (exit to start straight) initial acceleration is better for Mclaren!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvDj6oIZNeo
0.6 sec they are even. then starting acceleration is McLaren advantage up till roughly 8.5 secs! then Merc gets him!

In every corner there are several aspects including entry speed,, appex speed, exit speed. Speed around the corner is mostly varying, but can be constant as well. besides there is diference also when You should step on power. sometimes its only after corner and not all of these are affected by "peeky engine"!

The peaky comment was from me and separate from my comment about you knowing better than the experts who say that the Honda PU is a massive weakness for McLaren at the moment.

You seem to be pedalling a fantasy where the Honda PU is as good as any other but McLaren have basically built a soap-box and that why they're struggling and just blaming it all on Honda and Honda are accepting it.

[mrluke]

The Honda unit is as good as the Renault. It's not as good as Mercedes or Ferrari. On the other hand the Mclaren chassis is not as good as Str.

Everybody forgets that in 2014 Mclaren did have the best engine on the grid and they were still a mid field team. If the Honda was as good as Mercedes then Mclaren would still be fighting force India. No matter what PR statements the Mclaren team issue.

It remains to be seen whether Honda have taken a step forward this year or whether their gamble will prove too big letting Renault get away while Honda fixes reliability.

From any analysis you do of qualification last year it is incredibly difficult to support a position that the Mclaren chassis was held back by the Honda engine.

[Alonso Fan]

First of all we don't know how good or bad this year's PU is (yet).

Second, claiming that Honda's PU was as good as Renault's is absolute nonsense. Renault themselves said that they were behind Merc and Ferrari and Honda was a fair way off them.

Honda's PU was marginally better than the Ferrari 2015 PU and that's already saying something considering where their PU was in 2015

[adrianjordan]

Also, any comparisons with 2014 are unfair as they've had a massive shake-up of the technical team since then.

[makecry]

First of all we don't know how good or bad this year's PU is (yet).

Second, claiming that Honda's PU was as good as Renault's is absolute nonsense. Renault themselves said that they were behind Merc and Ferrari and Honda was a fair way off them.

Honda's PU was marginally better than the Ferrari 2015 PU and that's already saying something considering where their PU was in 2015

No I don't think they said that. Ferrari has been known to be very very close to Mercedes. Renault were far behind both of them last year. Ferrari's chassis was greatly flattered by their PU last year.

The order was Mercedes-->Ferrari------->Renault-->Honda.

[kasio]

But a peaky engine can make getting the power down difficult, especially in slower corners where you're relying on mechanical grip.

How is it that you seem to suggest that every expert who says that the Honda PU is a problem is wrong??

Havent seen even ONE "expert" saying Honda is peaky! And i can even prove its not peaky!

I wil not search myself but i will reffer to Rossberg Onboard from Monaco. You can see there Mclaren had no problem with stepping on accelerator and neither acceleration was bad into Tunnel. (compared to Merc)
Bad was cornering speed, entry speed, appex speed.

Also You can check comparison from Baku (exit to start straight) initial acceleration is better for Mclaren!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvDj6oIZNeo
0.6 sec they are even. then starting acceleration is McLaren advantage up till roughly 8.5 secs! then Merc gets him!

In every corner there are several aspects including entry speed,, appex speed, exit speed. Speed around the corner is mostly varying, but can be constant as well. besides there is diference also when You should step on power. sometimes its only after corner and not all of these are affected by "peeky engine"!

The peaky comment was from me and separate from my comment about you knowing better than the experts who say that the Honda PU is a massive weakness for McLaren at the moment.

You seem to be pedalling a fantasy where the Honda PU is as good as any other but McLaren have basically built a soap-box and that why they're struggling and just blaming it all on Honda and Honda are accepting it.

i was talking about differences between weak chassis and peaky engine. and how to distinguish those two. and i havent said what you have spinned there.

[fellowhoodlums]

if someone says peaky engine one more time i'll scream!!!

Peaky means what? High revving? Gearing ratios? Short stroke?

[kasio]

power delivery to wheels is not smooth. the word wich is oposite to smooth. isnt that peaky?

[Del Boy]

if someone says peaky engine one more time i'll scream!!!

Peaky means what? High revving? Gearing ratios? Short stroke?

I thought it meant delivering high torque in bursts? Which cause the car to oversteer.

[fellowhoodlums]

ok, not how I would descibe peaky. Means to me it is high not erratic, which is how i am reading your descriptions.

At least i know what's meant now.