2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Manoah2u]

the bad decision for Alonso imho was NOT moving to Mercedes when he had the chance.
i'm fairly sure Mercedes will be at the top still, that means he might just pop in and scoop up that WDC in front of Hammy's nose and imagine the 'fun'
that starts with that.

Instead, he claimed he believes in Mclaren-Honda's project. very dumb, as really, it is rather a guess whether they'll be 'up there' this year.
especially knowing that whilst last year they were 'climbing up the field ladder', they now have a brand new engine. so; total guess, and yes,
it's looking like it's going like it was back at the start of it. if all this drama is true,
then i'm actually wondering if Mclaren isn't just going to say **** you Honda and terminate the deal in-season (perhaps even before AUS) and spoon in
a Mercedes customer engine or perhaps a Renault engine, as really, that would still be better than what's going on with Honda right now.

[makecry]

McLaren looks like they are in for another year to struggling min the midfield, and Ferrari look like they have the quickest car... Alonso must be kicking himself so hard right now.

Alonso's decision to move to McLaren for me was always a bad one. With Ferrari he would atleast have a few wins and podiums in 70-80% of races. Yeah I know it's all in hindsight but still. Honda IS NEVER going to come good. They don't have the ability and engineering acumen necessary to succeed in Formula 1.

Ferrari will be this year, again, the second best team. So, the decision was good because he didn't want to be 2nd again. However, McLaren Honda will probably be fighting with Sauber or Renault this year. A very sad thing.

Well it's better to be 2nd than be 10th and fight with back marker teams with budgets much much lower than them.

[ziggy]

It's difficult for many people to understand what it takes to build such a complex PU. There's not only the engine (ICE) part, but there are also electric components and power electronics (nobody is talking about these here) which are as complex as the ICE. Then you have to get them all to play together like an orchestra. As an example, we all know, an orchestra has to practice again and again and again for hours on the same rehearsal, till it is is completely in-sync with itself.

Then there are some clever inovations. We are talking about state of the art technology. Aerospace level. These parts need to be developed and tested and there are no shortcuts. No references, no books where you could read about it. You can't just buy them from a supllier, so you are on your own. As per Murphys law, anything that can go wrong, will go wrong. And it has to go wrong, so you can understand the problem and solve it once for all.

When you got all bits and bolts together, a working PU, it has to work with the chassis, and we are at the orchestra again...

Is mercedes then more competent than honda? Impossible to say, but they started way earlier than honda. Flavio Briatore said they started in 2007, some other reports say 2010. I can clearly remember driver comments about very hot air, when driving behind the mercedes in 2011/2012, so they allready tested 2014 cooling configurations, they knew the cooling requirements back then. That means The Ice was allready running at least in 2011!

Long story short, I'm 100% sure Honda will get there, the question is only when. My gut feeling says Spain or Monaco...

[DiogoBrand]

1 - Alonso almost certainly knew that Ferrari would have a good car after he left. They always did, it just was never the best, and he just didn't want to continue finishing second. Yes, maybe it's better to finish second than to fall in Q2, but I would imagine for a competitive person such as Alonso, you either finish first or it just doesn't matter. My personal opinion is that it's better to be bold and fail miserably like McLaren than to always do the same old and always finish in a safe and boring 2nd or 3rd place like Ferrari does.

2 - McLaren is not gonna terminate their contract with Honda, BMW is not suddenly gonna build an F1 PU just because they'll build a road car engine for McLaren, McLaren won't give up the money that Honda brings, and they definitely aren't gonna give up a works team position to become a customer team with no chance of winning a championship (which is the situation of every customer team besides Red Bull ATM).

[Alonso Fan]

Also, how long will BMW have to spend on Pu development before they even get to Honda 2015 levels? Just doesn't make sense. There's nothing to guarantee they will make a half decent Pu just like there was nothing saying the same about Honda.

[GoranF1]

Also, how long will BMW have to spend on Pu development before they even get to Honda 2015 levels? Just doesn't make sense. There's nothing to guarantee they will make a half decent Pu just like there was nothing saying the same about Honda.

They are Germans.

[GoranF1]

According to Pirelli 1.22.5 lap from Vandoorne was on Medium brick.

[Redragon]

The only way to resolve this situation to my point of view is that Mclaren find the money that Honda is paying for so in that way will not depend on Honda and will bring preasure and copetitiveness as it will the give the message to Honda they are not exclusive and they can swap for other engine supplier. Also Honda should start to supply other team, they will gather data faster and develop the engine faster but also will say to Mclaren they are not exclusive too and they can buy other team and race as Honda. Otherwise they are stuck in not risky competitive position until the money of this R&D is finished. Without the risk of competition taking over there is not progress.

[DiogoBrand]

According to Pirelli 1.22.5 lap from Vandoorne was on Medium brick.

So how much time can we subtract to simulate the softer compounds?

The only way to resolve this situation to my point of view is that Mclaren find the money that Honda is paying for so in that way will not depend on Honda and will bring preasure and copetitiveness as it will the give the message to Honda they are not exclusive and they can swap for other engine supplier. Also Honda should start to supply other team, they will gather data faster and develop the engine faster but also will say to Mclaren they are not exclusive too and they can buy other team and race as Honda. Otherwise they are stuck in not risky competitive position until the money of this R&D is finished. Without the risk of competition taking over there is not progress.

So they're performing poorly because there is no competition? What about the other 9 teams and 3 engines on the grid?

[JCC]

They will most likely have to stick with the Honda engines unless Honda decide to quit, as none of the other manufacturers have to provide them with engines as long as they have the Honda engines available.

And why should they?

McLaren used to be a fierce competitor just 5 years ago and although it is a bit later in the pre-season than back in 2009 now, I bet that none of the other teams /manufacturers have forgotten the consequence of Mercedes providing Brawn GP with engines back then.

Using an engine from another manufacturer would not make them the team to beat this year but it would probably make them more competitive* (once they sorted the new requirements for packaging, cooling and so on), and that would be seen by its new manufacturer as "giving points away" from them self and the other teams that they already provide.

*That said, assuming that Honda will continue to struggle, but who knows.. Although it´s pretty unlikely, we might be in for surprise and they´ll show up with a somewhat reliable and competitive engine at the Aussie GP

[epo]

Also, how long will BMW have to spend on Pu development before they even get to Honda 2015 levels? Just doesn't make sense. There's nothing to guarantee they will make a half decent Pu just like there was nothing saying the same about Honda.

Pretty sure if BMW comes back it will be with RB and most likely first year with TR, ideal testing environment and also RB is kinda German too.

McLaren hasn't made a good car in years so it would be a big risk for a new engine supplier.

[kaepernickus]

Pretty sure if BMW comes back it will be with RB and most likely first year with TR, ideal testing environment and also RB is kinda German too.

No, RB isn't "kinda German too".
For ignorant people like you: It's Austrian .... and if anything else at all then it's Thai.

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Is there any news about when AUS spec engine will be available?

[ESPImperium]

Im disappointed with Honda, they need to get a handle on this ASAP as they are looking amateur and its loosing face in F1. They need that second team as well for data collection. Im pretty sure that they could have picked up lots of the ashes of Caterham in 2015 and came in with a entry for last year, albeit a tail end waiver. Also taken a old Caterham chassis from 2014 and also ran it for a year in 2015 to get data on their power unit.

Its clear that Honda, by pulling out in 2008 and returning in 2015 lost 7 years of engine development and thats 7 years they are trying to reclaim in F1, it looks as if they are getting closer, but by doing so they are loosing reliability, reliability data that in 7 years that the 3 other manufacturers have in abundance. Even in the 3 years that Cosworth lost in the V8 era, they were still playing catch up till 2013. They did catch up enough, but they were still that half page behind the leading 3 engines in the class in the V8 era. Honda lost the exhaust blown diffuser days, days that the teams learnt lots about ignition and combustion chamber technology, technology that has now came over to the V6T-HY era and has evolved like an arms race.

As for another manufacturer to enter, BMW won't enter till there are areas of the sport that are reformed, as for Toyota, they will come back some time as they have unfinished business, they will come in fighting when they do return. As for one manufacturer to come in, once all has blown over with its sister company, I'm going to say Audi will come in with a Engine supply to start with with Toro Rosso for a year, then once they have things figured out in that year, they will come in with a Red Bull supply and a Manufacturer team. The Honda public failures are one of the big reasons that new manufacturers are not looking to enter the sport.

Also the penalty system is also needing looked at for new and immature entrants. New and Immature entrants need to have more engines over a season and immature entrants to have similar without penalty? Would it be advisable to give immature entrants like Honda 6 engine limit per car for the season and new entrants to be given maybe 10 engines per car.

[Steven]

Oh please please please can we keep the speculation of a BMW switch in its own thread
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26038

[superdowg316]

I don't think we can really judge Honda by what they have until Australia. Most of the problems they have are new due to changing the layout and they're running a different spec at the moment. Even though they aren't getting track time, they are probably getting some data from things breaking and developing solutions quickly so that the actual spec can be better prepared.

How they do in Melbourne, however, will be seriously judged based on how the PU holds up in it's first outing.