2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[KingHamilton01]

Motorsport.com:
Green flow-viz on the rear wing of the McLaren. Still doing basic aero checks on day seven...
Ben Anderson

Wow even little Ben ripping into McLaren.

Everyone wants a piece now.

Ive noticed Ben anderson loves to bring McLaren down, did in last season's testing and said McLaren were back markers with Manor.

[Mansell89]

Does a 1:21.3 with a known useless engine actually suggest there is some speed in this McLaren car if Honda can ever sort it out?

Or is that just silly optimism?

[OneAlex]

I remember a few years back when it got to a point where every weekend someone would be ripping into Caterham, Virgin etc, saying they shouldn't even be in the sport if they can't get results, and they were the accepted minnows on a shoestring budget.

The media need a team to kick for extra excitement and McLaren are providing it in abundance - usually two teams actually, one at the top end of the grid and one at the bottom.

Sauber's 2016 engine will be the whipping boy of the lower field, but unless Ferrari management has another spat or Red Bull throws another hissy fit over not winning you can bet the rest of the season is going to be a snowball of McLaren-Honda coverage.

[Andres125sx]

Remember this new engine design was an accepted high risk.

I'd argue Mercedes and Ferrari weren't developing their Engines in failsafe Mode. They, too, had to take risks in Development to come up with the PU's they have now.

It is very different to design a PU from scratch, without known references (Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault) so you will only do what you know will work (no need to assume too many risks), to designing a PU from scratch when you need to match the perfomance of the fourth generation of your rivals

This will be first season they´re free to develop what then want, so now they can try a radical design (wich is what they did), assume it will be painful in first third of the season, but if that radical design is worth we´ll see a competitive PU mid-season.

And that´s exactly what McHonda need. It would be better if Harry Potter make some spell, but if we keep real, we can´t expect Honda to magically build a competitive and reliable PU without teethering problems, specially when you take into account the complexity of current PUs

[godlameroso]

Magnetti Marrelli is their supplier, but it's manufactured to Honda specifications. It took Renault the last half of 2015 and half of 2016 to get on top of their TJI system. Honda has had since Spa of last year, or about 7 months. Funny then that they expect their first major power unit upgrade by the Spanish GP, which would give them a similar lead time that Renault had to get to grips with their system.

Are you sure? Reports said no TJI on 2016 engine at all?

Renault has had it on a Red Bull since Spain 2016. The upgrade they introduced at Brazil 2015 was an early adaptation.

[santos]

Remember this new engine design was an accepted high risk.

I'd argue Mercedes and Ferrari weren't developing their Engines in failsafe Mode. They, too, had to take risks in Development to come up with the PU's they have now.

It is very different to design a PU from scratch, without known references (Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault) so you will only do what you know will work (no need to assume too many risks), to designing a PU from scratch when you need to match the perfomance of the fourth generation of your rivals

This will be first season they´re free to develop what then want, so now they can try a radical design (wich is what they did), assume it will be painful in first third of the season, but if that radical design is worth we´ll see a competitive PU mid-season.

And that´s exactly what McHonda need. It would be better if Harry Potter make some spell, but if we keep real, we can´t expect Honda to magically build a competitive and reliable PU without teethering problems, specially when you take into account the complexity of current PUs

That's true, but this is the third year of Honda with this generation of engines. And without talking about the power they have to match with the other manufacturers, it's the lack of reliability that surprises me. They could have a lot of work to do and have to spent years to achive the power that Mercedes or Ferrari have, but they should have at least an engine that can finish races.

[Thunder]

It is very different to design a PU from scratch, without known references (Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault) so you will only do what you know will work (no need to assume too many risks), to designing a PU from scratch when you need to match the perfomance of the fourth generation of your rivals

This will be first season they´re free to develop what then want, so now they can try a radical design (wich is what they did), assume it will be painful in first third of the season, but if that radical design is worth we´ll see a competitive PU mid-season.

And that´s exactly what McHonda need. It would be better if Harry Potter make some spell, but if we keep real, we can´t expect Honda to magically build a competitive and reliable PU without teethering problems, specially when you take into account the complexity of current PUs

Ferrari did great improving their 2014 PU for 2015. Also i don't think there is one Part in the 2017 Merc Engine left untouched from the 2014 Version. It's nothing short of astonishing what is going on at Brixworth. They had to innovate too, and boy have they. Yes these are hugely complex Machines, but with 2 Years on Track Racing experience and the sheer monetary Possibilities Honda provides it's just utterly dissapointion they didn't manage to run more than 11 consecutive Laps without something breaking. All that while being detuned to even achieve that.

It crossed my Mind that maybe Honda is running this F1 PU Programme on a tight budget despite the vast ammount of Money available at the main Honda Company. Did we ever get a glimpse of what they really invest into their F1 Journey?

[diffuser]

They need atleast another week of testing

[bauc]

Does a 1:21.3 with a known useless engine actually suggest there is some speed in this McLaren car if Honda can ever sort it out?

Or is that just silly optimism?

1.21.3 with that engine is sure good result, and Alonso said they can do 19.9 (if all good with the PU) but that is still almost a second off

[Andres125sx]

That's true, but this is the third year of Honda with this generation of engines. And without talking about the power they have to match with the other manufacturers, it's the lack of reliability that surprises me. They could have a lot of work to do and have to spent years to achive the power that Mercedes or Ferrari have, but they should have at least an engine that can finish races.

As many people say, solving reliability problems on a fast engine is the way to go. A slow engine is much more difficult to improve, even if bullet proof.

We don´t know how powerful the Honda PU is, as they´ve been forced to run detuned the whole tests, so we don´t know if this is a powerful PU with teethering problems, or a complete mess without perfomance nor reliability.

I can´t believe Honda started from scratch with the 2017 PU to build a mess, but we´ll have to wait and see how does it perform once the problems are solved

[godlameroso]

Alonso said it has neither power nor reliability, but he also knows this power unit will have the power once it's unlocked.

[Andres125sx]

It is very different to design a PU from scratch, without known references (Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault) so you will only do what you know will work (no need to assume too many risks), to designing a PU from scratch when you need to match the perfomance of the fourth generation of your rivals

This will be first season they´re free to develop what then want, so now they can try a radical design (wich is what they did), assume it will be painful in first third of the season, but if that radical design is worth we´ll see a competitive PU mid-season.

And that´s exactly what McHonda need. It would be better if Harry Potter make some spell, but if we keep real, we can´t expect Honda to magically build a competitive and reliable PU without teethering problems, specially when you take into account the complexity of current PUs

Ferrari did great improving their 2014 PU for 2015. Also i don't think there is one Part in the 2017 Merc Engine left untouched from the 2014 Version. It's nothing short of astonishing what is going on at Brixworth. They had to innovate too, and boy have they. Yes these are hugely complex Machines, but with 2 Years on Track Racing experience and the sheer monetary Possibilities Honda provides it's just utterly dissapointion they didn't manage to run more than 11 consecutive Laps without something breaking. All that while being detuned to even achieve that.

It crossed my Mind that maybe Honda is running this F1 PU Programme on a tight budget despite the vast ammount of Money available at the main Honda Company. Did we ever get a glimpse of what they really invest into their F1 Journey?

Since you´re saying yourself Mercedes did an awesome job, and they started much sooner than Honda, any reason to assume Honda is not investing the neccessary cash?

Mercedes nailed it. Then Honda (2015) was forced to go after a high target, and failed. The token restriction didn´t help obviously so they were stuck in 2015 and 2016 seasons with a poor base they couldn´t change. It´s now in 2017 when they can really solve the 2015 PU problems, and they decided to change the PU philosophy and started from scratch, again.

Even if his third year, this actually is their second attempt, as in 2016 they couldn´t change a half of what they really had to change. Now they´re going a risky route with a radical design to compensate the three years delay on proper development. That obviously brings teethering problems, again. This is frustrating, true, but IMHO the only way to become competitive at some point

[Thunder]

Yes the other PU Manufacturers have hab more Time developing these PU's, but there comes a Time when that excuse just doesn't cut it anymore. And to me we're right at the brink of that. If Honda would throw everything they got at this PU we wouldn't have had the Day 1 Oil Tank Issue. That was borderline unprofessional. I just get the Feeling reading some Interviews with Hasegawa that either they don't have the budget to do things right, they still underestimate the Challenge these PU's pose or they just lack in Brainpowerand Equipment to get their Vision on the Track.

No Proof whatsoever, just a feeling.

They will get it right someday, but anything beyond the start of the European Leg to get to Merc 2016 level and be reliable would be hard to swallow. And in F1 Terms that's bad.

[nokivasara]

McLaren (EB) are pointing fingers publicly, I think we are witnessing the beginning of the end for McL-H.

[ncassi22]

Yes the other PU Manufacturers have hab more Time developing these PU's, but there comes a Time when that excuse just doesn't cut it anymore. And to me we're right at the brink of that. If Honda would throw everything they got at this PU we wouldn't have had the Day 1 Oil Tank Issue. That was borderline unprofessional. I just get the Feeling reading some Interviews with Hasegawa that either they don't have the budget to do things right, they still underestimate the Challenge these PU's pose or they just lack in Brainpowerand Equipment to get their Vision on the Track.

No Proof whatsoever, just a feeling.

They will get it right someday, but anything beyond the start of the European Leg to get to Merc 2016 level and be reliable would be hard to swallow. And in F1 Terms that's bad.

Or it's very simply just one of those issues you cannot fix in a week? Even if i'ts not a major issue you still have to consider logistics - From shipping the motor to japan, to tracking the issue, to designing a proper fix and not just a patch (CAD & SIM), to prototyping, testing, validation, and then manufacturing and shipping it... I'm sorry, but IMO you cannot do that in just one week. IMO these last couple of weeks have been them trying to get it running at the test via patching it - the actual fix will be done back in japan for Melbourne. Of course them being up front about this would've been better than the current PR nightmare.

*edit - I think any successful engineer here will tell you the more critical time-frames become the more crucial logistics and hence management becomes - like Wazari said about cutting it too close by trying too many different things etc.