Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[The_table]

Could it be that the new prechamber ignition is the source of evil, as it causes higher pressure and temperature inside the bore, therefore pistons , valves and combustion chamber have to be reinforced, maybe there is the weak point?

And there has to be absolutely accurate valve timing with a specialized software. Which one does Honda use?

You would think that these issues would show up on the dyno?
Question: Is it common to do dyno runs with the engine in its "package" so to speak, ie: under bodywork?

[garrett]

It must have shown imo as they started dyno testing already in November, but otherwise Ferrari also had big troubles with their PCI valve timing last year.....no idea

Edit: Hasegawa-san said:

“Everything that has happened has not been seen on the dyno, I believe. No. Especially the day two issue and this week’s day one issue, we didn’t expect such a problem.”

http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/03/11/ ... -the-dyno/

[Dimi]

I m really curious what reason can cause these insulation failures only in track conditions and not on the dyno

Maybe the higher g forces this year, higher than they expected it?

Could it be that the new prechamber ignition is the source of evil, as it causes higher pressure and temperature inside the bore, therefore pistons , valves and combustion chamber have to be reinforced, maybe there is the weak point?

And there has to be absolutely accurate valve timing with a specialized software. Which one does Honda use?
Maybe there is a software issue which causes the insulation failures?

G forces and curbs could be an explanation. It would be really really funny if all this failures emerging from body side....

Oopps...

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/free/index.p ... 6786&tt=-1

But on the final day, Alonso's machine shuts down while the car is running again.
"Since I stopped right after hitting the curb (bottom) at the 9th corner, I think that shock was involved," he said, "I can not say any more from myself" . Because the cause was not on the power unit but on the car body side.

[FrukostScones]

sooner or later they will make it work.

[toraabe]

I m really curious what reason can cause these insulation failures only in track conditions and not on the dyno

Maybe the higher g forces this year, higher than they expected it?

Could it be that the new prechamber ignition is the source of evil, as it causes higher pressure and temperature inside the bore, therefore pistons , valves and combustion chamber have to be reinforced, maybe there is the weak point?

And there has to be absolutely accurate valve timing with a specialized software. Which one does Honda use?
Maybe there is a software issue which causes the insulation failures?

G forces and curbs could be an explanation. It would be really really funny if all this failures emerging from body side....

Oopps...

Could be that the engine itself is too weak structurally. If It it twisting and bending.?

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/free/index.p ... 6786&tt=-1

But on the final day, Alonso's machine shuts down while the car is running again.
"Since I stopped right after hitting the curb (bottom) at the 9th corner, I think that shock was involved," he said, "I can not say any more from myself" . Because the cause was not on the power unit but on the car body side.

[gruntguru]

The electrial problems are being caused by the PU vibrations. According to the Sky testing recap tonight.....

these crankshafts have dampers to reduce torsional vibration but will still be twisting through about +0.25 deg to -0.25 deg about 200 times per second
generating high stresses that would cause fatigue failure after maybe 200 hours

the mechanical effects due to the MGU-K (geared to the crankshaft) will be integrated into the crankshaft/damper system by design
but the MGU-K is presumably exposed to (some of) the crankshaft's torsional vibration
this vibration is presumably causing some kind of vibratory stress damage/fretting to the electrical insulation of conductors in the rotating parts

Surely the MGUK is driven at the flywheel/gearbox end of the crankshaft where the torsional displacements are much less severe?

[godlameroso]

Rules say it must be geared directly to the crank. It's not transmission side, but may be geared via a flywheel or something to that effect. If only there was a way to translate harmonic vibrations to hydraulic pressure via some hydraulic based harmonic damper to drive the MGU-K.

[63l8qrrfy6]

The electrial problems are being caused by the PU vibrations. According to the Sky testing recap tonight.....

these crankshafts have dampers to reduce torsional vibration but will still be twisting through about +0.25 deg to -0.25 deg about 200 times per second
generating high stresses that would cause fatigue failure after maybe 200 hours

the mechanical effects due to the MGU-K (geared to the crankshaft) will be integrated into the crankshaft/damper system by design
but the MGU-K is presumably exposed to (some of) the crankshaft's torsional vibration
this vibration is presumably causing some kind of vibratory stress damage/fretting to the electrical insulation of conductors in the rotating parts

Surely the MGUK is driven at the flywheel/gearbox end of the crankshaft where the torsional displacements are much less severe?

As there is no flywheel per se, the inertia at the rear of the engine is low so displacements will not be as low as you think because the node of the first torsional mode shifts towards the front of the engine. Having said that, I am pretty sure Ferrari used a rear driven MGUK at some point. Honda's seemed to be front driven from a few pictures I have seen around here somewhere.

Rules say it must be geared directly to the crank. It's not transmission side, but may be geared via a flywheel or something to that effect. If only there was a way to translate harmonic vibrations to hydraulic pressure via some hydraulic based harmonic damper to drive the MGU-K.

Nothing stopping them from sticking a damper on the MGUK

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't believe it is harmonic vibrations. That is too easy to solve andJust easily reproduced. Shift the natural frequency higher by increasing stifness. Too easy. I think regular forced vibrations are the problem. I believe vibrations relating to combustion or as Alonso thinks, hitting curbs!

[bill shoe]

Fastforward to 2004 and Honda became quite handy, finishing 3rd in the WDC and 2nd in the WDC against a dominant Ferrari. The 2004 engine was reportedly the most powerful and I remember it sounded amazing! So loud almost too loud.

Yes!! I remember the volume and the nature of the Honda sound was very different from every other engine. It was a much sharper and louder noise. Why?? Were they using direct injection then and everyone else was not?

[63l8qrrfy6]

I don't believe it is harmonic vibrations. That is too easy to solve andJust easily reproduced. Shift the natural frequency higher by increasing stifness. Too easy. I think regular forced vibrations are the problem. I believe vibrations relating to combustion or as Alonso thinks, hitting curbs!

It's not that easy - several driven components like the MGUK are likely to be soft coupled - increasing the stiffness would mean passing on vibration to them.

Also crank pin and main journal diameters are dictated by regulations.

[fiohaa]

They where down on power even then because they where using Mobile fuel ,and not petronas , so they had around 30HP less then Mercedes had.

do you have a source for that claim?

EDIT: Found this from a sky f1 article, mark huges:

The necessity for the engine and fuel to be developed together in this formula was underlined last year when McLaren ran Mercedes engines as customers but was contracted to run Mobil fuel. Despite identical engines to the works cars, the McLarens were often as much as 40 horsepower down.

doesnt matter. but still - do you honestly think if they knew in 2014 that this is how bad things would be in 2015/2016/2017, do you really think they'd have still switched? I doubt they had a 5 year plan, more like 3 years, and they are well off target even with that.

[godlameroso]

I don't believe it is harmonic vibrations. That is too easy to solve andJust easily reproduced. Shift the natural frequency higher by increasing stifness. Too easy. I think regular forced vibrations are the problem. I believe vibrations relating to combustion or as Alonso thinks, hitting curbs!

Easy enough to be sorted by Melbourne? Flying an engine from Sakura to Melbourne takes at least half a day.

[ncassi22]

I don't believe it is harmonic vibrations. That is too easy to solve andJust easily reproduced. Shift the natural frequency higher by increasing stifness. Too easy. I think regular forced vibrations are the problem. I believe vibrations relating to combustion or as Alonso thinks, hitting curbs!

Easy enough to be sorted by Melbourne? Flying an engine from Sakura to Melbourne takes at least half a day.

Depends on where and in what form stiffening takes place. It could be a case of either milling away less material, reworking an existing mold or the longest of all, having to make a completely new mold. From what I can tell from the pictures Honda cast both block and heads.

[godlameroso]

Vibration can be dampened by changing the type of seal on the valve cover. Maybe the secret to stabilizing combustion is in the quench area where the bore and cylinder head mate.