Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

For the record, it's far easier to torch exhaust valves than intake valves. Intake valves have the intake charge to cool them off. Exhaust valves have to seat properly to release their heat to the valve seats and valve guides. If they don't seat properly, all the heat loading is taken up by the guide, but the guides are a soft metal and excessive heat will warp the guide leading to valve sealing issues, until the guide play ovalizes the seat.

[ollandos]

I cant understand how vibrations affect electronic systems and why is so difficult for an automotive manufacturer to solve this.
- vibrations affect connectors?
- cause cold joints to cirquits?
- affect rotating parts of other electrical devices like altenators -mguh?
finally how is possible not to have discovered vibration problems on test beds?

Quite easy to see the vibrations being missed on a test bed. Although it has the same mounting points those mounting points are attached to very solid framework which is then probably secured into a concrete slab. All this would act to dampen the overall level of the vibrations. You then turn around and bolt the engine into a very light although stiff structure, this has a very poor ability to assist in dampening the vibrations. The result is the overall level of the vibrations are higher then what they probably saw on the dyno rig.

I think this sounds very reasonable. With all the dyno testing that they claim has been done, it is very unlikely the problems they are having are anything but forced vibration brought on by the motion of the car. The oil tank problem was a result of being unable to simulate/estimate the effects of motion on the ability of the pump to supply oil to the engine.

I have no doubt Honda can sort these problems out, but by the time they do, how far ahead will the more reliable engines be in terms of power?

the car brake on pit lane before any touch on kerbs ...and on install lap ...the pressures and heat on reality its far away from test bench...for sure honda its going to oz with match stronger seals ..its the most simple solution and can do it fast but lets see ...

[3jawchuck]

Quite easy to see the vibrations being missed on a test bed. Although it has the same mounting points those mounting points are attached to very solid framework which is then probably secured into a concrete slab. All this would act to dampen the overall level of the vibrations. You then turn around and bolt the engine into a very light although stiff structure, this has a very poor ability to assist in dampening the vibrations. The result is the overall level of the vibrations are higher then what they probably saw on the dyno rig.

I think this sounds very reasonable. With all the dyno testing that they claim has been done, it is very unlikely the problems they are having are anything but forced vibration brought on by the motion of the car. The oil tank problem was a result of being unable to simulate/estimate the effects of motion on the ability of the pump to supply oil to the engine.

I have no doubt Honda can sort these problems out, but by the time they do, how far ahead will the more reliable engines be in terms of power?

the car brake on pit lane before any touch on kerbs ...and on install lap ...the pressures and heat on reality its far away from test bench...for sure honda its going to oz with match stronger seals ..its the most simple solution and can do it fast but lets see ...

That could have been installation issues, also they had had a filming day just prior to the test. No idea what engine they used there though.

[harjan]

Prior to the testing days several sources said; the engine on the dyno is unreliable (loosing bits & pieces) and underpowered. In hindsight these sources might have been more accurate then we hoped at the time.

Honda claiming that they didn't have the issues on the dyno might be more defensive marketing speak than we wish to believe.

[Wil992]

Hi all,
With regards to the pre-test speculation, some were optimistic some were pessimistic, it's a 50:50 shot so I don't think it's correct to look back after the event and say they were correct. By chance half would be right anyway.
Looking at this from an outsiders point of view (i.e. Someone who is interested but not a technical specialist like some of you guys are), the thing it reminds me most of is a total lack of communication at Honda.
I've seen it in my own field (Software).
You get guys at the top of a project telling the MD all is fine but the guys at the coal face are way behind schedule and fighting to fix problems but being overwhelmed by the workload.
So, over optimistic project manager tells head that engine is making good power, but doesn't mention it can only do this for 5 minutes without blowing up, someone else says they have some vibration issues but they think they know the problem and are working on a fix, etc etc.
If no-one at the top is deep diving into these issues to see the extent of the problems it becomes very easy to paint a completely false picture of the situation without anyone ever saying anything that's not true.

[dren]

Whatever it is, it's a mess.

On the bright side, there are no tokens this year, so Honda can fix their issues.

[Wil992]

Yes, I assume they will be bringing a new engine to every race, they'll just have to take the penalties for using too many.

[KingHamilton01]

Prior to the testing days several sources said; the engine on the dyno is unreliable (loosing bits & pieces) and underpowered. In hindsight these sources might have been more accurate then we hoped at the time.

Honda claiming that they didn't have the issues on the dyno might be more defensive marketing speak than we wish to believe.

Yeah I agree they are putting up a brave face that's for sure, Hence why Alonso has sounded them out! so if they were in doubt if they are holding McLaren back, there is none now!

[ncassi22]

More from Hasegawa.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/138818-rel ... urne-honda

[dr_cooke]

More from Hasegawa.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/138818-rel ... urne-honda

That's somenthing I can't understand... I would accept that they found some unexpected reliability issues that did not show up in the dyno, even if those issues are.. well... enormous. What I do not believe is that the engine is proving to be underpowered. I mean, they must exactly know engine's power from their dyno tests. Unless he means that they will solve unreliability by heavily detuning, but that is not what I understand from Hasegawa sacho's words.

[alexa]

Looks like this year will be year for testing 2018 PU , and since McLaren doesn't have extra 100-150 mil € to pay engines of some other manufacture it's doomed to stay with Honda.

[dren]

More from Hasegawa.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/138818-rel ... urne-honda

That's somenthing I can't understand... I would accept that they found some unexpected reliability issues that did not show up in the dyno, even if those issues are.. well... enormous. What I do not believe is that the engine is proving to be underpowered. I mean, they must exactly know engine's power from their dyno tests. Unless he means that they will solve unreliability by heavily detuning, but that is not what I understand from Hasegawa sacho's words.

The PU is both unreliable and down on power. I don't think they are related if I understand him correctly.

[GoranF1]

More from Hasegawa.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/138818-rel ... urne-honda

That's somenthing I can't understand... I would accept that they found some unexpected reliability issues that did not show up in the dyno, even if those issues are.. well... enormous. What I do not believe is that the engine is proving to be underpowered. I mean, they must exactly know engine's power from their dyno tests. Unless he means that they will solve unreliability by heavily detuning, but that is not what I understand from Hasegawa sacho's words.

The PU is both unreliable and down on power. I don't think they are related if I understand him correctly.

I think he ment if we fix reliability for AUS, it will be at the price of performance.

[Redragon]

Looks like this year will be year for testing 2018 PU , and since McLaren doesn't have extra 100-150 mil € to pay engines of some other manufacture it's doomed to stay with Honda.

Well if the contract and project of Mclaren-Honda is 10 years and they spend 5 years to get right the engine (something Honda said from the beginning) and they have the change of wining the other 5 years as constructors I don't think it would be so bad outcome. The problem is Alonso, everyone wants him to win before retires but the project so far I don't see it as disaster or catastrophic yet. So let's see how they develop the engine this year without tokens and see if that chasis is as good they state.

[namao]

The problem is Alonso, everyone wants him to win before retires but the project so far I don't see it as disaster or catastrophic yet. So let's see how they develop the engine this year without tokens and see if that chasis is as good they state.

Honda promised ALO that they was going to have a top engine in 2017. Also, Honda wanted ALO, they paid (and still paying) ALO and they support ALO. The problem is not ALO, the problem is McLaren Honda, chassis and engine.