Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

Vibration issues with the crank is too easy to sniff out and solve contrasted against the worry that Hasegawa expressed. I think us westerners seriously underestimate Honda's technical level. A crank balance problem? for an F1 engine maker who made 20k rpm engines in the past? I don't think sooo..

[DiogoBrand]

Vibration issues with the crank is too easy to sniff out and solve contrasted against the worry that Hasegawa expressed. I think us westerners seriously underestimate Honda's technical level. A crank balance problem? for an F1 engine maker who made 20k rpm engines in the past? I don't think sooo..

I agree. Of course it's worrying to see McLaren and Honda at this poor shape, very similar to their 2015 catastrophe, but I don't think Honda is any less capable of making an engine than any of the other three manufacturers, and these Japanese seem really stubborn, which can be bad sometimes, but also means they're not likely to give up before reaching the top.

They had to redo their engine from the ground up with the token system lifted, and IMO it's better to be aggressive, try new things, some of which won't work, but try to be the best and not in the midfield, even if that costs some backmarker performances.

[godlameroso]

Vibration issues with the crank is too easy to sniff out and solve contrasted against the worry that Hasegawa expressed. I think us westerners seriously underestimate Honda's technical level. A crank balance problem? for an F1 engine maker who made 20k rpm engines in the past? I don't think sooo..

Depends, if they are using fancy rods on the same throw and the engine banks aren't staggered, it could be a problem. I'm not saying it is a problem, just that it could be. I'm more inclined to agree with you though, it's probably something combustion related, to me that seems the biggest culprit.

Then again, it could have just been a smoke screen, and they were simply trying 5 different specs of power units to see which one had the most potential, and then develop that one throughout the season. I just hope that philosophy doesn't bite them later on, on the odd chance they hit a developmental dead end, and have to back track on another version they thought had little potential when they realize something after developing the dead end version.

It's like dating, when you go out with a bunch of women, and you realize one you didn't really like back in the day was actually right for you all along.

[GoranF1]

Vibration issues with the crank is too easy to sniff out and solve contrasted against the worry that Hasegawa expressed. I think us westerners seriously underestimate Honda's technical level. A crank balance problem? for an F1 engine maker who made 20k rpm engines in the past? I don't think sooo..

Then again, it could have just been a smoke screen, and they were simply trying 5 different specs of power units to see which one had the most potential,

Sandbagging 2.0

[63l8qrrfy6]

Vibration issues with the crank is too easy to sniff out and solve contrasted against the worry that Hasegawa expressed. I think us westerners seriously underestimate Honda's technical level. A crank balance problem? for an F1 engine maker who made 20k rpm engines in the past? I don't think sooo..

I don't think it is the technical level that is lacking - it's the experience.

F1 is a completely different discipline and knowing where to cut corners and when to pay special attention is not something that is learned from a book nor from designing road engines.

Very little in an F1 engine runs to published parameters (temperatures, factors of strength, bearing limits, mass flows etc) but it is the experience that dictates where 0.9 will work instead of the 'book limit' of 1.2. Honda have to rediscover all these by themselves with very limited resources.

It is also easy to forget that in EU there is a massive engineering base - for example in UK you have Merc, Ilmor, Cosworth and Mahle that literally share the same postcode and there is a massive supply chain built around them. They have access to specialized suppliers that have been in the motorsport business for a very long time. Engineers are much more inclined to move around and share their knowledge whereas in Japan it is common for engineers to spend their entire career at a single company.

[ncassi22]

I was curious about what Wazari said about valve-train failure due to an electrical issue. Turns out back in their F1-V8 days the pneumatic valve system used two electric air regulators to allow for variable control of pressure in addition to the mechanical regulator. Still allowed? Could these have failed?

[GhostF1]

Depends, if they are using fancy rods on the same throw and the engine banks aren't staggered, it could be a problem. I'm not saying it is a problem, just that it could be. I'm more inclined to agree with you though, it's probably something combustion related, to me that seems the biggest culprit.

Just based on past comments from Boullier saying Honda's issues are not fundamental and the design is sound, I think we can probably cross this off the list. I agree it seems most likely to be a combustion fault.

[J.A.W.]

Vibration issues with the crank is too easy to sniff out and solve contrasted against the worry that Hasegawa expressed. I think us westerners seriously underestimate Honda's technical level. A crank balance problem? for an F1 engine maker who made 20k rpm engines in the past? I don't think sooo..

I don't think it is the technical level that is lacking - it's the experience.

F1 is a completely different discipline and knowing where to cut corners and when to pay special attention is not something that is learned from a book nor from designing road engines.

Very little in an F1 engine runs to published parameters (temperatures, factors of strength, bearing limits, mass flows etc) but it is the experience that dictates where 0.9 will work instead of the 'book limit' of 1.2. Honda have to rediscover all these by themselves with very limited resources.

It is also easy to forget that in EU there is a massive engineering base - for example in UK you have Merc, Ilmor, Cosworth and Mahle that literally share the same postcode and there is a massive supply chain built around them. They have access to specialized suppliers that have been in the motorsport business for a very long time. Engineers are much more inclined to move around and share their knowledge whereas in Japan it is common for engineers to spend their entire career at a single company.

Honda does however, have a great deal of MotoGP/Superbike/MX racing engineering expertise, as
well as a long history of building high performance production cars, which are also regularly raced.

Those engineers are rotated through the Honda organisation which also extends through marine, aviation, agricultural & industrial power unit research - development, & production, so they are no - 'small beer'...

[bill shoe]

Long shot but a possibility, and at any rate something to think about...

Crank dynamics can be affected by driveline resonances (driveline is shafts, gears, etc. downstream of engine). The driveline in an F1 car (mostly the transmission) will have its various vibration modes. An engine dyno will have a different driveline (coupling shaft) with different vibration modes. I've seen cases in production engines where different dynos will yield radically different crank torsional vibrations. At first nobody believes the dynos could cause the difference. Eventually, when all other possibilities are eliminated, it is determined that both dynos are accurate, but the different coupling shafts between engine and dyno have different resonant freqs due to different lengths, diameters, etc. If one shaft hits an engine resonance it goes bad quickly. Same engine was silky smooth on a different dyno (different coupling shaft).

[anthonyfa18]

Question, I know since 2014 honda has building the motor in Japan. Before 2009 retirement if i remember correctly they were build in the uk. Can this be the problem???

One thing I don't understand is the last time we had v6 in f1 honda was dominating with its RA168-E, where was that motor was built ???

Also I rember at one point in f1 Mugen used to prepare f1 motor with honda, mabe honda shoud there ask them for help to get them back on a wining track

[FW17]

Question, I know since 2014 honda has building the motor in Japan. Before 2009 retirement if i remember correctly they were build in the uk. Can this be the problem???

One thing I don't understand is the last time we had v6 in f1 honda was dominating with its RA168-E, where was that motor was built ???

Also I rember at one point in f1 Mugen used to prepare f1 motor with honda, mabe honda shoud there ask them for help to get them back on a wining track

All built in Japan. UK base was a logistic center between Japan and Team

They also had a dyno to do some work with the teams, engine inspection etc

[GhostF1]

Long shot but a possibility, and at any rate something to think about...

Crank dynamics can be affected by driveline resonances (driveline is shafts, gears, etc. downstream of engine). The driveline in an F1 car (mostly the transmission) will have its various vibration modes. An engine dyno will have a different driveline (coupling shaft) with different vibration modes. I've seen cases in production engines where different dynos will yield radically different crank torsional vibrations. At first nobody believes the dynos could cause the difference. Eventually, when all other possibilities are eliminated, it is determined that both dynos are accurate, but the different coupling shafts between engine and dyno have different resonant freqs due to different lengths, diameters, etc. If one shaft hits an engine resonance it goes bad quickly. Same engine was silky smooth on a different dyno (different coupling shaft).

Interesting...
Towards the end of the test we started noticing gearshift quality degradation, there's videos everywhere... It was also mentioned previously that Stof and Fernando complained of harsh upshifts.. Maybe the gearbox shifting up and down in such a manner and as many times, mixed with varied driver input/demands on the motor, is doing exactly what you are saying, basically creating an environment that isn't seen to the same extent on a dyno, so these vibrations/knocks are creating combustion issues.
So maybe when we could hear the gearbox making the crunching noises in the last days, it was the team actually pulling the shift speed down in effort to be softer on the engine, the noise could be a by-product of this or something similar. Either way it might be a hint at what's going on.

[Sasha]

Do remember that the shaft between the Compressor and Turbine is longer this year with a bigger Compressor and Turbine too.That was MB's biggest headache while designing their PU.(harmonics and vibrations)

I think from hearing from people in the know is that HRD went too advance with everything.One of their Consultants just wanted to get the TJI/Pre-Chamber right first(get that working then improve other things later) and use standard rear mounted TC.Honda is just so behind everybody with TJI/Pre-Chamber!

It looks like they are trying bypass MB by bypassing engineering development steps......no alpha or beta testing......strait to the moon with the first launch.
9.999 out of 10 times that approach goes boom.

[harjan]

if you look at the mistakes made:
- hiring Alonso which was purely done to make clear they mean business. (And this backfired because with Fernando you bring in expectation).

- late decision with small resources in comparison to merc and Ferrari.

- running development in Japan, while an integral approach is needed for these hybrid cars.

- running with only one team and that team being one of the biggest outfits in F1

If you add all this then I can tell you who caused all these problems- Ron Dennis. He pressured Honda into F1, he brought in Alonso to create the illusion of competitivness and he made sure only Mclaren would run the engine.

The only way for Mclaren and Honda forward is to undo most of the above.

[Postmoe]

Vibration issues with the crank is too easy to sniff out and solve contrasted against the worry that Hasegawa expressed. I think us westerners seriously underestimate Honda's technical level. A crank balance problem? for an F1 engine maker who made 20k rpm engines in the past? I don't think sooo..

I don't think it is the technical level that is lacking - it's the experience.

F1 is a completely different discipline and knowing where to cut corners and when to pay special attention is not something that is learned from a book nor from designing road engines.

Very little in an F1 engine runs to published parameters (temperatures, factors of strength, bearing limits, mass flows etc) but it is the experience that dictates where 0.9 will work instead of the 'book limit' of 1.2. Honda have to rediscover all these by themselves with very limited resources.

It is also easy to forget that in EU there is a massive engineering base - for example in UK you have Merc, Ilmor, Cosworth and Mahle that literally share the same postcode and there is a massive supply chain built around them. They have access to specialized suppliers that have been in the motorsport business for a very long time. Engineers are much more inclined to move around and share their knowledge whereas in Japan it is common for engineers to spend their entire career at a single company.

In automotive "Tier 1 and 2" are the ones who bring value, and not only in terms of simple supply chain. Those companies have R&D, are very good at delivery and also are the ones knowing what's been done around the corner.

What a lot of people don't understand is that the organizational level, when resources are limited, has tons of unleashed potential. Honda hasn't been innovative with that and that means they'll tend to develop at slower rates, have more integration issues and a worse approach to the calendar.

They are probably training their staff in a very interesting way as they're learning from scratch, but results wise.... it's suboptimal.