Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dren]

I doubt they share a budget, but I would assume they talk. If they don't, that'd be asinine. The same with the HPD Indy group, but I could be wrong.

Didn't Mercedes pull from their turbo diesel arm for their PU?

[honda_fun]

In 8days testing, honda trouble was T1day1(oil tank ploblem), T1day2(ICE broken),
T2day1(electrical plobrem,Earth fault)
Mclaren trouble was T1day4(oil leak from their gear box), T2day2(water leak from made by MCL made turbo pipe), T2day3 and day4(electrical harness on their car)

MCL force all failure on HONDA.

[daren_p]

http://papermodelers.sk/download/imgpl. ... 2b50c01ce6

Looks like they checking a lot of temperatures inside the PU (I've counted ~18 pcs). Those blue connectors looks like for thermal probes data logger...

Or maybe for insulation resistance measurements at various points

Those are thermocouples?

Yes, they look like type T thermocouples, typically the most accurate of the common thermocouple types (though not as accurate as other types of temperature sensors, such as RTD or thermistor).

Edit: Nice to see a more detailed shot of the new PU, looks like they have finally swapped to a larger, more Merc sized intake mani for this one.

[3jawchuck]

http://papermodelers.sk/download/imgpl. ... 2b50c01ce6

Looks like they checking a lot of temperatures inside the PU (I've counted ~18 pcs). Those blue connectors looks like for thermal probes data logger...

You're right, they most definitely look like thermocouple plugs, T or E type maybe?

[Macklaren]

In 8days testing, honda trouble was T1day1(oil tank ploblem), T1day2(ICE broken),
T2day1(electrical plobrem,Earth fault)
Mclaren trouble was T1day4(oil leak from their gear box), T2day2(water leak from made by MCL made turbo pipe), T2day3 and day4(electrical harness on their car)

MCL force all failure on HONDA.

Are you really claiming that the testing issues were more McLaren's fault that Honda's?

[godlameroso]

More like instead of pointing fingers and wasting even more time, they should just get on with it and tend to the bed they made. They must move forwards, even if it's a little as long as progress is made this can still be salvaged.

[dren]

As glenntws mentioned the mguh stator is casted together with the block inside the v. Because of the excessive heat in this area of the engine, the mguh's insulation starts to deteriorate quickly and after some laps fails and electrocute the engine. Thats why they was always stopping after exactly 30 laps...
And all these probes are coming from this specific area.

Do we know what temperature we are talking about? I doubt temperatures in the vee exceed 200 degree celsius. From experience I can tell, that the winding insulation starts to deteriorate at a much higher temperature, so maybe the vibrations cause the insulation to fail. Can be a cooling problem also, otherwise they would have that exact problem on the dyno.

Thermal ratings of insulation classes
These are the highest allowable stator winding temperatures for long insulation life.
Temperatures are total, starting with a maximum ambient of 40° C
Insulation class Maximum winding temperature, C
A 105°
B* 130°
F* 155°
H 180°

http://www.leeson.com/TechnicalInformat ... topic.html

Our newly wound stators operate at 65 C and are good to about double that. We have to actively cool them. I would expect even with better insulation, Honda operates their H at a lower temperature than 200 C.

If I remember correctly, wasn't Honda's K in their initial PU in 2015 oil cooled? I remember them having issues with a seal ring.

[ziggy]

As glenntws mentioned the mguh stator is casted together with the block inside the v. Because of the excessive heat in this area of the engine, the mguh's insulation starts to deteriorate quickly and after some laps fails and electrocute the engine. Thats why they was always stopping after exactly 30 laps...
And all these probes are coming from this specific area.

Do we know what temperature we are talking about? I doubt temperatures in the vee exceed 200 degree celsius. From experience I can tell, that the winding insulation starts to deteriorate at a much higher temperature, so maybe the vibrations cause the insulation to fail. Can be a cooling problem also, otherwise they would have that exact problem on the dyno.

Thermal ratings of insulation classes
These are the highest allowable stator winding temperatures for long insulation life.
Temperatures are total, starting with a maximum ambient of 40° C
Insulation class Maximum winding temperature, C
A 105°
B* 130°
F* 155°
H 180°

http://www.leeson.com/TechnicalInformat ... topic.html

Our newly wound stators operate at 65 C and are good to about double that. We have to actively cool them. I would expect even with better insulation, Honda operates their K at a lower temperature than 200 C.

If I remember correctly, wasn't Honda's K in their initial PU in 2015 oil cooled? I remember them having issues with a seal ring.

Agree with you, but we're talking about the "H in the V"

Electromagnetic coils of most typical electromagnetic devices are wound from copper magnet wire. Copper magnet wire
is available with many different types of insulation with the highest temperature insulation being a polyimide varnish
rated for operation at a maximum temperature of 450°F (230°C).

Various powder coatings are typically used as well as tapes and films of kapton, nomex, etc. None of the typical insulation materials will work in an ambient temperature environment of 1000°F (.500°C) There are some powder coatings available that are rated for operation up to 1000°F(.500°C). If the device generates no internal heat, these powder coatings will work.

http://www.firstmarkaerospace.com/pdf/vhtmotors.pdf

[dren]

Thanks for the link. I also edited my original post with the H in the V. I knew that, just typed it wrong. Thanks.

[godlameroso]

With adequate cooling I don't see how it could get more than 150 C.

[Dimi]

With adequate cooling I don't see how it could get more than 150 C.

Temp on stator could be arround the coolant temp, but the windings will be much hotter

[GhostF1]

More rubbish speculation about dumping Honda for a Merc unit... some interesting figures though. How legit though is up for debate.

Excerpt:
a brief comment from a McLaren spokesperson who said that preseason had been “challenging and disappointing,” before adding, “We are working with Honda to address shortcomings and deficiencies. Together with Honda, we are considering all options.”

If the British team were to part company with Honda, this would be less than straightforward -- the team currently receives around $100 million, free power units and a significant sponsorship package. Honda also pays half of the drivers' wages.

When compared to the $18.2 million that Mercedes charges customer teams, it is very difficult to see how it would be possible to make the finances add up; the team has been without a title sponsor since Vodafone left at the end of 2013.



Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... z4bXUBMgbX

It really is quite funny to see how many outlets are latching onto a section of a sentence. I don't think that spokesman could of emphasised WITH or in PARTNERSHIP or IN TANDEM WITH HONDA any more than he did..

[glenntws]

Interesting to see, so my idea of the "in-the-block" casted mgu-h housing seems to be reality, nice.

What many of you forget, is the heat that the MGU-H itself generates. I can just give you following examples: The water in the coolant jacket of the block gets to a point of about 70-80°C. Now, if could be possible that they connected this coolant jacket to the MGU-H housing, by making a passing point on every near point. The MGU-H would then be fitted into a smaller and thinner housing which would "swim" in the centre of the engine blocks MGU-H housing. The port then could be closed and sealed by two plates on each end of the housing.

Another good thing about that would be the fact, that they could put in pieces of rubber coated metall or something like that in between the outer and the inner housing to not only fix it but somehow "encapsule" it from the ICE's vibrations.

However, if you think about the high power density which the MGU-H must have, it seems pretty hard to achieve acceptable temperatures. You would need strong insulation on the coil windings.

On the other hand, you could make the MGU-H inner housing very "rough" and textured on the outside and really increase the amount of water throughflow in the ICE, this would help cooling radically.

It's hard to see, that the MGU-H survives in these conditions, but it is possible. A bigger problem would be to dampen the shaft accurately, because interferences with the longitudinal vibrations of the engine seem programmed.

[Craigy]

Interesting to see, so my idea of the "in-the-block" casted mgu-h housing seems to be reality, nice.

I posted about that on 6th March @ 11.55am.
Did I miss a previous post from you on it?

[glenntws]

Interesting to see, so my idea of the "in-the-block" casted mgu-h housing seems to be reality, nice.

I posted about that on 6th March @ 11.55am.
Did I miss a previous post from you on it?

If that's true, I'm sorry. actually I didn't read many of the pages before and just wanted to give a update on my thoughts, so sorry for that