Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
mwillems
44
Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 02:09
mclaren111 wrote:
21 Mar 2017, 12:41
Motorsport.com
As well as focusing on the cause of its reliability dramas in testing, Honda has spent considerable focus on improving its engine mapping for the start of the season.
It is understood that problems with the mapping were the root cause of the vibrations that led to some of the issues in Barcelona testing.
Honda’s F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has said that progress has been made with mapping plus in other unspecified areas.
Positive news.
Translation:
Some numpty mixed up the ignition cables.

:wink:

On the ECU mapping update just before the race.. I don't think Honda would send such sensitive data over email, no matter how secure the connection is claimed to be. I can't see it.
They could use a secure FTP client, or more likely, dial in via VPN to the Honda network and download the file directly. I don't think transferring the files would be an issue at any point.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

coco-bun
coco-bun
18
Joined: 25 Jan 2017, 01:10

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Found another interesting Japanese article by F1sokuho (written by Masahiro Owari) with interviews of Hasegawa on the power unit.

I was going to just share the link and have you guys google translate it... but I've seen how the slightest nuance can get lost in translation and take a huge unexpected turn (and then twisted even more by some so-called 'media' and armchair F1 experts) so I took the liberty of doing a quick translation. It may not be a perfect translation, but hopefully it's better than google translate.

-----------------------------------------------------

「こんな状態になるんだったら、去年のエンジンのままでよかったよ」 
"If I knew this was going to happen, I would have been fine with last year's engine"

 第2回バルセロナF1合同テスト最終日、ステアリングを握っていたフェルナンド・アロンソは、長谷川祐介ホンダF1総責任者にそう語ったという。なぜ、アロンソはそんな言葉を口にしたのか。それは、ホンダのパワーユニットにトラブルが相次いだだけでなく、パワーを感じられなかったからだ。
Said Fernando Alonso to Yusuke Hasegawa as he gripped the streering wheel during the last day of the second week of the pre-season testing. Why would Alonso say something like that? It wasn't just Honda's engine having trouble after trouble, but also because the power wasn't there.

 打倒メルセデスを2017年の旗印に掲げたホンダは、今年これまでのコンセプトを一新したパワーユニットを開発した。ホンダは具体的な技術を公表していないが、長谷川総責任者の「今シーズンに向けて、かなり攻めた開発をした」というコメントから、F1界でライバル勢がすでに実勢投入しているタービュラントジェットイグニション(TJI)を採用したと考えられる。
Honda set out 2017 with a goal to defeat Mercedes, and started with an entirely new power unit architecture. Although no technical detail has not been revealed, from Hasegawa's comment that "we have set out an aggressive plan for this season", one would imagine they have incoroprated and trialed TJI as the others already have.

 だが、これは市販車にも応用されていない技術。長谷川総責任者も「このエンジンの開発は昨年始めたばかりで、まだ燃焼形態に関してわかっていないところがある」というように、完璧に機能させるのは簡単ではない。1回目のテスト2日目のトラブルも燃焼室が何らかの原因で壊れた可能性が考えられる。
However, this (TJI) is a technology that has yet to be implemented in production road cars. As hinted by Hasegawa saying that "development for this engine was just started last year, and there are areas yet to be fully understood around the combustion", perfectly incorporating TJI is not an easy feat. The engine troubles during preseason testing week one day two is speculated to be from some sort of issue with the combustion chamber.

 問題はトラブルだけではない。冒頭のアロンソのコメントのように、TJIによって得られるはずのパワーが感じられないのである。長谷川総責任者は「昨年のエンジンよりもパワーは出ています」と語っているが、1回目のテストでの最高速は10チーム中、最下位の時速314.8kmだった。
Their problems do not end there though. As Alsonso commented, the power gain expected from TJI was not there. Although Hasegawa said "there's more power than last year", top speed was the lowest of all 10 teams at 314.8 km/h.

 昨年のスペインGP予選時のアロンソの最高速が時速327.7kmなので、今年は時速13km遅くなったことになる。ただし、これは今年のマシンが昨年よりも空気抵抗が増えたためであり、ホンダだけが遅くなったわけではない。
This means they are 13 km/h slower than the 2016 Spanish GP qualifying top speed of 327.7 km/h. However, it's worth noting that the 2017 cars in general have much more drag, and a slower top speed compared to 2016 is not just with Honda.

 例えば、ハースは時速1km、ルノーは時速3km、フェラーリは時速5km、メルセデスAMGは時速7km、ウイリアムズは時速10km、トロロッソは時速11km、フォース・インディアは時速15kmほど遅くなっている。
For example, other teams had lower speed such as Haas by 1 km/h, Renault by 3 km/h, Ferrari by 5 km/h, Mercedes by 7 km/h, Williams by 10 km/h, Toro Rosso by 11 km/h, and Force India by 15 km/h .

 ではラップタイムはどうか? 昨年のスペインGPでポールポジションを獲得したルイス・ハミルトンのタイムは1分22秒000。バルセロナテストでのハミルトンの自己ベストは1分19秒352だから、2.7秒速くなっている。
So how did lap times change from last year? 2016 Spanish GP pole sitter Lewis Hamilton's lap time was a 1:22.000. Hamilton's personal best lap time during the 2017 preseason testing was 1:19.352, 2.7 seconds faster.

 これに対してアロンソの昨年のスペインGP予選のタイムは1分23秒981で、テストでの自己ベストは1分21秒389と2.6秒ゲインしている。つまり、ホンダはライバル勢より速くはなっていないが、アロンソが「去年のままでよかった」と絶望するほど遅くもなっていない。
In comparison, Alonso's 2016 Spanish GP qualifying lap time was 1:23.981, and 2017 preseason testing personal best lap time was 1:21.389, which is 2.6 seconds faster. Thus, although Honda's lap time improvement wasn't quite as much as Mercedes, it's not deterimental as Alonso's comment made it out to be (first comment up top, how he Honda should have just kept the 2016 engine).

 しかも、このエンジンはまだ開発途中で、可能性が大きく残されている。だから、長谷川総責任者はアロンソのコメントにも動じない。
Also, this engine is still under development with significant potential yet to be unlocked. And maybe why Hasegawa wasn't too fazed by Alonso's comments.

「もっと良いPUを準備できなかったことに対しては、後悔はあります。もっと時間があれば、もっといい準備ができていたと。でも、この技術を選択したことに対して、後悔は1ミリもない。やろうと思っている技術はすべて入っています。よく入ったなと思うし、よくスタートラインに立つことができたなと思います。さくらのメンバーがよく頑張ってくれました」
"I do regret not having a better prepared power unit. If we had more time, we would have been much better prepared. However, I have not a millimeter of regret (...ounce of regret?) for choosing this technology (maybe he meant 'this development path'? not sure... need more context). Every technology we wanted is in this. Considering all the technology we were able to put in (I THINK that's what he is saying... again, more context could help...) and stand where we are (not sure when this was said... I'm guessing either start of pre-season testing or Australia GP.... again, missing some context), I am very proud of our team at Sakura"
(^this quote... as simple as it is, was hard to translate since I'm not entirely sure when this was said nor know the exact context... the gist is, Honda was able to incorporate every development and tech they wanted to, and is proud of his team at Sakura.)

 その決断をしたホンダを信頼するのかしないのか。パートナーのマクラーレンの動向に注目が集まっている。
And now the focus of attention is on their partner, McLaren, and whether they will roll the dice to together on this big gamble.

taperoo2k
taperoo2k
14
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 17:33

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

The only issue with file transfers would be a lapse in security, but that's a risk all the teams and manufacturers share. In fact I don't think F1 teams have been hacked in a serious way (that we know of). A lot of what F1 teams and the manufacturers do happens in the cloud.
Interesting article about how Honda analyses the PU and other parts of the car in real time -
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/how ... trategies/

From that you could think Honda discovered the mapping issues from real time data analysis pointing out an issue with Honda Engineers back in Japan teasing it apart to find the source of the problem. This is one area of PU development that might get overlooked a little bit.

zac510
zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Slightly off topic (ie not Honda), but excuse it in that it is bringing some facts to the argument amongst otherwise speculation.
Mercedes released a lot of information about their car to pit communications last year:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/anal ... ng-745239/
And here is a bit about the Lotus track IT setup:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/20 ... telemetry/

aterren
aterren
1
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 05:31

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

coco-bun wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 03:37
I was going to just share the link and have you guys google translate it... but I've seen how the slightest nuance can get lost in translation and take a huge unexpected turn (and then twisted even more by some so-called 'media' and armchair F1 experts) so I took the liberty of doing a quick translation. It may not be a perfect translation, but hopefully it's better than google translate.
Thank you.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

coco-bun wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 03:37
Found another interesting Japanese article by F1sokuho (written by Masahiro Owari) with interviews of Hasegawa on the power unit.

I was going to just share the link and have you guys google translate it... but I've seen how the slightest nuance can get lost in translation and take a huge unexpected turn
Thanks....

Muramasa!
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

GhostF1
GhostF1
110
Joined: 30 Aug 2016, 04:11

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Hahaha! I love this...
Sign of things to come :S ...
Or total domination... eventually

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/8 ... 5156068353

ncassi22
ncassi22
31
Joined: 27 Apr 2013, 02:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post


BosF1
BosF1
18
Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 10:27
Location: Netherlands

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Let's see if there are any differences.

Left = Aus GP
Right = Testing
Image

Singabule
Singabule
17
Joined: 17 Mar 2017, 07:47

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

BosF1 wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 10:53
Let's see if there are any differences.

Left = Aus GP
Right = Testing
http://i.imgur.com/NSrvY9D.jpg
So Marking no 1 on FW17 picture before is gear driver fuel pump, with fuel rail on intake side. But for no 2, it is related to ignition coil, and it is interesting that it may linked to air sensor or air ducting, related to their TJI i guess. The cable is going inside V, any guess?

3jawchuck
3jawchuck
37
Joined: 03 Feb 2015, 08:57

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

BosF1 wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 10:53
Let's see if there are any differences.

Left = Aus GP
Right = Testing
http://i.imgur.com/NSrvY9D.jpg
Reminds me of those spot the difference puzzles I'd play as a child. I was always hopeless at them.

The silver object in the testing image highlighted by circle 1 seems to be different in the new one. Someone said it is the fuel pump? Obviously no thermocouple leads in the race model. Generally a little less cabling (or a lot tidier), for example the little brown harness (directly above circle 2 and through circle 1 in the testing image).

The union between cylinder head and block (or upper crankcase?) seems to be different in the race model. If the majority of fixes are in software or relating to head construction then I suppose the only changes you'd expect would be visible in the head area.

Exhaust packaging tighter in the race model?

Lot of little differences are probably related to the angle of the pictures, progressive optimisation of packaging and differing states of "undress" of the car in each picture.

User avatar
Mr.G
34
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

3jawchuck wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 13:05
BosF1 wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 10:53
Let's see if there are any differences.

Left = Aus GP
Right = Testing
http://i.imgur.com/NSrvY9D.jpg
Reminds me of those spot the difference puzzles I'd play as a child. I was always hopeless at them.

The silver object in the testing image highlighted by circle 1 seems to be different in the new one. Someone said it is the fuel pump? Obviously no thermocouple leads in the race model. Generally a little less cabling (or a lot tidier), for example the little brown harness (directly above circle 2 and through circle 1 in the testing image).

The union between cylinder head and block (or upper crankcase?) seems to be different in the race model. If the majority of fixes are in software or relating to head construction then I suppose the only changes you'd expect would be visible in the head area.

Exhaust packaging tighter in the race model?

Lot of little differences are probably related to the angle of the pictures, progressive optimisation of packaging and differing states of "undress" of the car in each picture.
Looks exactly the same except the testing probes wiring and thermal stickers... Looking at the new PU they should pack it even closer - look at the space between engine block and exhaust thermal shielding... lot of space :)
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

User avatar
dren
226
Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

Looks very similar, just without all of the testing wire looms. Any word on if this is a newer spec, or is it the same with just upgraded maps?

Looks like an oil cooler at the top of the intake manifold?
Honda!

GoranF1
GoranF1
155
Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

coco-bun wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 03:37
Found another interesting Japanese article by F1sokuho (written by Masahiro Owari) with interviews of Hasegawa on the power unit.

I was going to just share the link and have you guys google translate it... but I've seen how the slightest nuance can get lost in translation and take a huge unexpected turn (and then twisted even more by some so-called 'media' and armchair F1 experts) so I took the liberty of doing a quick translation. It may not be a perfect translation, but hopefully it's better than google translate.

-----------------------------------------------------

「こんな状態になるんだったら、去年のエンジンのままでよかったよ」 
"If I knew this was going to happen, I would have been fine with last year's engine"

 第2回バルセロナF1合同テスト最終日、ステアリングを握っていたフェルナンド・アロンソは、長谷川祐介ホンダF1総責任者にそう語ったという。なぜ、アロンソはそんな言葉を口にしたのか。それは、ホンダのパワーユニットにトラブルが相次いだだけでなく、パワーを感じられなかったからだ。
Said Fernando Alonso to Yusuke Hasegawa as he gripped the streering wheel during the last day of the second week of the pre-season testing. Why would Alonso say something like that? It wasn't just Honda's engine having trouble after trouble, but also because the power wasn't there.

 打倒メルセデスを2017年の旗印に掲げたホンダは、今年これまでのコンセプトを一新したパワーユニットを開発した。ホンダは具体的な技術を公表していないが、長谷川総責任者の「今シーズンに向けて、かなり攻めた開発をした」というコメントから、F1界でライバル勢がすでに実勢投入しているタービュラントジェットイグニション(TJI)を採用したと考えられる。
Honda set out 2017 with a goal to defeat Mercedes, and started with an entirely new power unit architecture. Although no technical detail has not been revealed, from Hasegawa's comment that "we have set out an aggressive plan for this season", one would imagine they have incoroprated and trialed TJI as the others already have.

 だが、これは市販車にも応用されていない技術。長谷川総責任者も「このエンジンの開発は昨年始めたばかりで、まだ燃焼形態に関してわかっていないところがある」というように、完璧に機能させるのは簡単ではない。1回目のテスト2日目のトラブルも燃焼室が何らかの原因で壊れた可能性が考えられる。
However, this (TJI) is a technology that has yet to be implemented in production road cars. As hinted by Hasegawa saying that "development for this engine was just started last year, and there are areas yet to be fully understood around the combustion", perfectly incorporating TJI is not an easy feat. The engine troubles during preseason testing week one day two is speculated to be from some sort of issue with the combustion chamber.

 問題はトラブルだけではない。冒頭のアロンソのコメントのように、TJIによって得られるはずのパワーが感じられないのである。長谷川総責任者は「昨年のエンジンよりもパワーは出ています」と語っているが、1回目のテストでの最高速は10チーム中、最下位の時速314.8kmだった。
Their problems do not end there though. As Alsonso commented, the power gain expected from TJI was not there. Although Hasegawa said "there's more power than last year", top speed was the lowest of all 10 teams at 314.8 km/h.

 昨年のスペインGP予選時のアロンソの最高速が時速327.7kmなので、今年は時速13km遅くなったことになる。ただし、これは今年のマシンが昨年よりも空気抵抗が増えたためであり、ホンダだけが遅くなったわけではない。
This means they are 13 km/h slower than the 2016 Spanish GP qualifying top speed of 327.7 km/h. However, it's worth noting that the 2017 cars in general have much more drag, and a slower top speed compared to 2016 is not just with Honda.

 例えば、ハースは時速1km、ルノーは時速3km、フェラーリは時速5km、メルセデスAMGは時速7km、ウイリアムズは時速10km、トロロッソは時速11km、フォース・インディアは時速15kmほど遅くなっている。
For example, other teams had lower speed such as Haas by 1 km/h, Renault by 3 km/h, Ferrari by 5 km/h, Mercedes by 7 km/h, Williams by 10 km/h, Toro Rosso by 11 km/h, and Force India by 15 km/h .

 ではラップタイムはどうか? 昨年のスペインGPでポールポジションを獲得したルイス・ハミルトンのタイムは1分22秒000。バルセロナテストでのハミルトンの自己ベストは1分19秒352だから、2.7秒速くなっている。
So how did lap times change from last year? 2016 Spanish GP pole sitter Lewis Hamilton's lap time was a 1:22.000. Hamilton's personal best lap time during the 2017 preseason testing was 1:19.352, 2.7 seconds faster.

 これに対してアロンソの昨年のスペインGP予選のタイムは1分23秒981で、テストでの自己ベストは1分21秒389と2.6秒ゲインしている。つまり、ホンダはライバル勢より速くはなっていないが、アロンソが「去年のままでよかった」と絶望するほど遅くもなっていない。
In comparison, Alonso's 2016 Spanish GP qualifying lap time was 1:23.981, and 2017 preseason testing personal best lap time was 1:21.389, which is 2.6 seconds faster. Thus, although Honda's lap time improvement wasn't quite as much as Mercedes, it's not deterimental as Alonso's comment made it out to be (first comment up top, how he Honda should have just kept the 2016 engine).

 しかも、このエンジンはまだ開発途中で、可能性が大きく残されている。だから、長谷川総責任者はアロンソのコメントにも動じない。
Also, this engine is still under development with significant potential yet to be unlocked. And maybe why Hasegawa wasn't too fazed by Alonso's comments.

「もっと良いPUを準備できなかったことに対しては、後悔はあります。もっと時間があれば、もっといい準備ができていたと。でも、この技術を選択したことに対して、後悔は1ミリもない。やろうと思っている技術はすべて入っています。よく入ったなと思うし、よくスタートラインに立つことができたなと思います。さくらのメンバーがよく頑張ってくれました」
"I do regret not having a better prepared power unit. If we had more time, we would have been much better prepared. However, I have not a millimeter of regret (...ounce of regret?) for choosing this technology (maybe he meant 'this development path'? not sure... need more context). Every technology we wanted is in this. Considering all the technology we were able to put in (I THINK that's what he is saying... again, more context could help...) and stand where we are (not sure when this was said... I'm guessing either start of pre-season testing or Australia GP.... again, missing some context), I am very proud of our team at Sakura"
(^this quote... as simple as it is, was hard to translate since I'm not entirely sure when this was said nor know the exact context... the gist is, Honda was able to incorporate every development and tech they wanted to, and is proud of his team at Sakura.)

 その決断をしたホンダを信頼するのかしないのか。パートナーのマクラーレンの動向に注目が集まっている。
And now the focus of attention is on their partner, McLaren, and whether they will roll the dice to together on this big gamble.
so during testing he said power deficit is "scary" and "we may have fallen fruther back" and now he says PU has more power than last years.....he should make up his mind already...
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

fellowhoodlums
fellowhoodlums
5
Joined: 25 Jan 2016, 00:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post

I think you have to allow a little leeway for translation. As was said before the naunces can spin things in a completely different way.