more cheating for mclaren...

[millerjam]

I wouldn't say I was shocked or disgusted by his conduct and I certainly don't hate him, that's a little bit strong, maybe dissapointed is better. Like when Schumi tried to drive Villeneuve off the road in Jerez or when he parked it at Rascasse in 2006. I guess there's a certain class or a way you expect a champion to conduct himself. Especially when he went for the whole holding up Hamilton thing in the pits in Hungary, not really a big thing in itself, a bit childish really and certainly something I wouldn't expect of the world champion. At times last season he looked like a spoiled little kid who wasn't getting what he wanted.

Now I do know all F1 drivers are spoiled little kids! However I really can't put a finger on exactly what it is, I wish I could tell you. A lot of what you think of a person is simple perception, and the way in which Alonso came across last year just didn't seem very sporting, or that he was a good loser. It's probably just a quirky British thing...or probably just me!

No believe me the british press are a bit of a joke in some cases, and they quite often (especially the tabloid press), blow things out of proportion. The racism row in Spain last week being an example, of which I've read some pretty shocking comments and some very insightful comments from the press. Now I don't want to get into a debate about that here, I don't agree at all with what some of the people at Barcelona did, however it was exaggerated in the press a lot. The BBC and the Independent certainly two of the better press outlets...

My main gripe with F1 with respect to Motogp is that it seems to have lost its edge a little. Just watch some films from the early nineties and it's amazing how much it's changed. Motogp seems to still have some kind of human touch, a little bit rough round the edges that I think F1 has lost somewhere. I still enjoy watching every minute of it though!

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Hey guys sorry for the late reply, been at work all day.

Basically the reason I find I cannot like Alonso anymore is more or less what millerjam said. I cannot tey you why exactly, or give exact references of his behaviour which erked me - I agree with millerjam again that I guess a lot is based on perception, and there is a certain way you expect a champion to behave.

A few things I didn't like that I can tell you about though are:
1. The hungary fiasco - I don't care whether Hamilton started it or not, frankly that's irrelevant, at the end of the day Alonso should have been the bigger man and left the Boss to discipline Hamilton - that's not Alonso's place nor job to do so, and that makes his behaviour there just as bad as Hamilton's. (Not worse or better - just as bad.)
2. Blackmailing his boss - again, whether he was telling the truth or not, you do not blackmail your boss like a spoil little child. If Alonso's action where really a "noble act of exposing the horrid truth" he'd have blown the whistle on his team regardless of using it as leverage for getting a better deal.
3. Claiming he brought 6 thenths to the team - Frankly that's appauling, how can you expect a team to get behind you (when you think they aren't) by bad mouthing them, by implying ALL the progress made by the team was made by himself and not the 1000 other people within the team.
4. Constantly whinging about being an equal number one - at the end of the day earn it and stop crying and let your on track performance warrent it. He didn't do that this year and based upon their relative performances I think the two having an equal status was right.
5. Complainig he is getting less preferable treatment - when a team (probably) looses money on a contact with a supplier by switching the brakes supplier on one of their car's in order to aide the driver in question (Alonso) I fail to see how you're not getting the support you need. I'd be amazed if that was a one-off bit of help from Mclaren.

As for thinking Ferrari should be punished because they let someone steal their properties that is too ridiculous for words. Amazing you have to resort to such idiotic logics to defend the shady behaviour of mclaren. Try reading a law book and understand the meaning and conditions of stealing property.

Read the posts properly - we were joking.

Getting a better pit box is cheating the penalty, period.

We all agree that its wrong for them to be given a better pit box than they deserve, but I still fail to see how Mclaren are cheating if its GIVEN to them. I agree its not morally right, but its not something Mclaren have actively DONE (Like stealing a 780page dossier).

Alonso is a guy who when he left renault, went to both headquarters and shook hands with all 600+ employees

That's irrelevent. We all know when he's in a good mood he's a great person. That's why he has so many fan's. He'd won the title by then and gotten what he wanted. But when his back's against the wall I think Fernando could handle himself with more class. Again I'll go back to that same 2006 season, before thanking all the empolyees (and rightly so) he's spent a couple weeks complaining that they weren't supporting him enough. On what basis? because his rivals found some pace? Again I'm not saying that he's a bad person, just that I feel he could handle himself better in adverse situations, and his behaviour in those situation can be a little less than savoury.

P_O_L, I agree that Alsono is not a bad guy, I think you may misunderstand me, I do want to like him, I wouldn't want to if I though he was some sort of nasty person. But I feel a bit let down by him, I expect a champion to be an example to others, and if I had say a child who behaved like he does when the chips are down or he doesn't get his way you better believe that kid would get a talking to lol.

Finally I think its great that you're such a passionate fan like the rest of us but this forum is a great place to be because (99% of the time) the users treat eachother with respect. We may say somebody's rational is mad or they're biased or their point is irrelevent but comments like:

Amazing you have to resort to such idiotic logics to defend the shady behaviour of mclaren

or sarcastic comments like:

Try reading a law book and understand the meaning and conditions of stealing property.

Are simply rude and unacceptable, especially when you consider that nobody actually has said that Ferrari should be punished except in jest.

[donskar]

I do miss Monty Python, but some of these posts almost make up for the loss.

For those of you who hold the position that Ferrari should be blamed for being the victim of theft, PLEASE keep it coming. You are HILARIOUS!

[stewie325]

3. Claiming he brought 6 thenths to the team - Frankly that's appauling, how can you expect a team to get behind you (when you think they aren't) by bad mouthing them, by implying ALL the progress made by the team was made by himself and not the 1000 other people within the team.

Maybe you should consider what Fisichella has done for Force India since joining them. From looking at the times so far, the car has been at least 0.5 seconds quicker, sometimes more. Mike Gascoyne has said that Fisi improved their car simply by developing the setup in a different way.
Now, I know these are two very different teams, but Alonso could have achieved something similar at McLaren by asking the team to research different settings.
I personally don’t believe he brought as much as half a second, but the fact is he definitely contributed to the car development in some way.

[teecof1fan]

I'm with all those who say that McLaren should absolutely be in the last pit; those are simply the rules and messing with the rules only causes problems. Like Ray said, if you finish last in the points you get the last pit box.

And realistically it makes no difference where your pit is because when it comes time for the pitstop the mechanics are going to walk out and wait for their man, and when he gets there they're going to lift the car up, change its tyres, refuel it, then set it down and let it get on with the race. So your garage is a little smaller? Deal with it, you're McLaren-Mercedes.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Maybe you should consider what Fisichella has done for Force India since joining them. From looking at the times so far, the car has been at least 0.5 seconds quicker, sometimes more. Mike Gascoyne has said that Fisi improved their car simply by developing the setup in a different way.
Now, I know these are two very different teams, but Alonso could have achieved something similar at McLaren by asking the team to research different settings.
I personally don’t believe he brought as much as half a second, but the fact is he definitely contributed to the car development in some way.

Oh exactly I agree he brought the team some pace - look at what a talented driver he is, of course he brought them some time. But to claim all the 6 tenths was him is a bit OTT. I mean if you were working with him as a designer, and he said "Yup, the problem is the front wing", so you go and with your team of designers re-design the front wing and the car gains a tenth or two. Sure he pointed out what needed fixing, but that's his job, as is yours to design the car. As such its a team effort, and that should be acknowledged. Saying that he brought time to the team is fine, but claiming its all his doing must have left some of his team a bit cheesed off.

@donskar - I don't think anybody was actually serious when they said Ferrari should be penalised for being the victim - I even said that in my post above. Its a joke based upon Ray's post before hand.

@teecof1fan - I think we all agree here that it's not right for mclaren to be given a better pitbox. Personally I think they should be at the end of the pitlane. Least points = end of pitlane. End of, there's no dispute is there? I'm just saying that by being given a better pitbox mclaren have not cheated, although I do accept that you could argue they have not been 100% morally correct in accepting this gesture. That being said I think its a shame they've been offered it in the first place! lol.

[P_O_L]

Millerjam, may I ask the same I asked to Spencifer? What shocked you or disgusted you of his conduct?

I offer a short list:

- He collided with Hamilton on who would get full support for the championship
- He told FIA he knew that the McLaren team was receiving info from a mole in Ferrari

Is there something more? I'd appreciate any comments, as the only british press I read is the BBC and The Independent, and both covered the issues of last year's championship in an admirable way.

Oops, sorry, I was starting to rant.

Ciro yr losing the track bitime.

1. its pure speculation on who bumped into who for the full support, aside from the fact hamilton embarrassed dennis, his team, alonso and F1 by his public crying at monaco 2007. Also the fact that dennis claimed '' we where racing alonso, not kimi 2 races bfeore the end of the race suggests alonsos claim he ''felt alone'at mclaren was a good one, fueling the general european feeling hamilton was pulled ahead of alonso.

2. The second point is also pure speculation and therefore a bad guiding light to judge the situation aside from the known facts. But seeing you read BBC reports its no wonder.

I can hardly believe you say the BBC did a decent job covering F1. Imo their F1 section should be called Formula hamilton. The only thing you read there was hamilton this, hamilton that. Hamilton does alap in top gear, hamilton deep intervieuw, I once counted about 17 different stories abot Hamilton and just 3 about other F1 facts. No storys about Davidson, DC or their other former hero, button. On the day Kimi won the championship there was no story about the new champion. WHile even ITV, britains most nationalistic F1 covering entity, had the decency to run a special about Kimi. When Ferrari won the constructors, no story at all. INstead we got an in depth intervieuw with former champs like watson/hill/moss who praised hamilton all the way into his rear end. Watson stated: alonso will put chinese water torture to break hamilton but hamilton will prevail and win the wdc". These dramatic and hugely arrogant nationalistic quotes you find on the BBC website. In the end, alonsos water torture did work as hamilton failed bigtime. Moss went as far to state that hamilton is the best drivere ever!! that means better than prost, shumi, senna, lauda, piquet, villeneuve, hakinnen, you name it. How very admirable..not. JAcky Stweart, the one mosley refers to as a guy that cannot shut up, stated that hamilton will set new standards in being media savvy. As it is lewis publicly cried about his number 2 status at monaco, stated twice that hed think alonso should leave the team, and insulted the public with his moronic statement of""nobody at mclaren, or me, wants to take the championship away from kimi"" while that was exactly what the mclaren lawyer was asking for in the fia hearing!! So either lewis is retarded, or he was lying. Then he keeps on insulting the fans by selling a book, an autobiography, called MY STORY while it was written by a ghost writer, and then went to say he was not gonna live in switzerlanfd to avoid taxes. That last thing even the tabloids had a hard time swallowing and in the end he finally admitted he was lying. It has nothing to do with his personality, it has everything to do with his public appearance so dont give me that macaroni i defend alonso whilst attacking lewis is not coherent. To the contrary. I think my posts are coherent enough for you to reply about. ANd if i where you, id start reading ITV f1, or this website for admirable coverage. WIth ITV you know they are nationalistic but at least they make no bones about it and give ALL british drivers some light, unlike that love in at the BBC by the hands of one Andrew Benson.

End of rant

PEACE

[P_O_L]

Hey guys sorry for the late reply, been at work all day.

Basically the reason I find I cannot like Alonso anymore is more or less what millerjam said. I cannot tey you why exactly, or give exact references of his behaviour which erked me - I agree with millerjam again that I guess a lot is based on perception, and there is a certain way you expect a champion to behave.

A few things I didn't like that I can tell you about though are:
1. The hungary fiasco - I don't care whether Hamilton started it or not, frankly that's irrelevant, at the end of the day Alonso should have been the bigger man and left the Boss to discipline Hamilton - that's not Alonso's place nor job to do so, and that makes his behaviour there just as bad as Hamilton's. (Not worse or better - just as bad.)
2. Blackmailing his boss - again, whether he was telling the truth or not, you do not blackmail your boss like a spoil little child. If Alonso's action where really a "noble act of exposing the horrid truth" he'd have blown the whistle on his team regardless of using it as leverage for getting a better deal.
3. Claiming he brought 6 thenths to the team - Frankly that's appauling, how can you expect a team to get behind you (when you think they aren't) by bad mouthing them, by implying ALL the progress made by the team was made by himself and not the 1000 other people within the team.
4. Constantly whinging about being an equal number one - at the end of the day earn it and stop crying and let your on track performance warrent it. He didn't do that this year and based upon their relative performances I think the two having an equal status was right.
5. Complainig he is getting less preferable treatment - when a team (probably) looses money on a contact with a supplier by switching the brakes supplier on one of their car's in order to aide the driver in question (Alonso) I fail to see how you're not getting the support you need. I'd be amazed if that was a one-off bit of help from Mclaren.




[That's irrelevent. We all know when he's in a good mood he's a great person. That's why he has so many fan's. He'd won the title by then and gotten what he wanted. But when his back's against the wall I think Fernando could handle himself with more class. Again I'll go back to that same 2006 season, before thanking all the empolyees (and rightly so) he's spent a couple weeks complaining that they weren't supporting him enough. On what basis? because his rivals found some pace? Again I'm not saying that he's a bad person, just that I feel he could handle himself better in adverse situations, and his behaviour in those situation can be a little less than savoury.

P_O_L, I agree that Alsono is not a bad guy, I think you may misunderstand me, I do want to like him, I wouldn't want to if I though he was some sort of nasty person. But I feel a bit let down by him, I expect a champion to be an example to others, and if I had say a child who behaved like he does when the chips are down or he doesn't get his way you better believe that kid would get a talking to lol.

Finally I think its great that you're such a passionate fan like the rest of us but this forum is a great place to be because (99% of the time) the users treat eachother with respect. We may say somebody's rational is mad or they're biased or their point is irrelevent but comments like:

Amazing you have to resort to such idiotic logics to defend the shady behaviour of mclaren

or sarcastic comments like:

Try reading a law book and understand the meaning and conditions of stealing property.

Are simply rude and unacceptable, especially when you consider that nobody actually has said that Ferrari should be punished except in jest.

Its strange you think alonso sould be the bigger man while a lot of people think lewis should have been. I think it is a case of what goes around, comes around and remains highly defendable eventhough i agree the action was not good.

The blackmailing part is pure speculation. We still dont know excatly what happened.
The same goes for point four..we simply dont know if the quarrel was about equal status. What we do know is Hamilton went public with crying he signed up as number 2, and that Dennis said with 2 races to go that""they where racing alonso, not kimi"" suggesting hamilton did get prefertial treament, at least at the latter races. Juan Pablo Montoya went as far to say the minute he learned alonso was to be partnered with lewis, he felt sorry as lewis was ron dennis ''baby'. ALl signs that there is a lot more to it than meets the eye.

The point about bringing 6 tenths wasnt so bad if you consider mclaren was more than a sceond behind ferrari at the last race of 2006. And wether u like it or not, mclaren suddenly went leaps ahead when he arrived, not in the least place their starting procedures wich looked to be copies of renaults 2006 lightning starts.

All in all you are basing your opinion on some very debatable assumptions. British media stories who have seemed to have fallen in love with hamilton for some reason and look at everything he does through rose-tinted specs. I cannot find any substantial actions of alonso wich justify your suddeny dislike towards the double world champion. Over the years ive seen drivers battle eachother much harder and meaner than alonso appears to have done.

As for the reading the law book comment..people who state ferrari should be punished for letting such info leave the factory have no knowledge about law in general or crimes in particular. If they said that in jest then so where my comments. At no point it became rude or unacceptable. I think that saying the logic behind thinking ferrrai should be punished, is an idiotic one is also far from rude and it seems im not alone thinking that. More important it was attacking the post and not the poster. I fail to see the reason of your objection to it.

[P_O_L]

I also accept that my views are probably a bit skewered seeing as I read predominantly British press, saying that you've got to respect the views of some publications (like Autosport) as they've been in the game for an age, and generally aren't too biased.
nice distraction. How can they get it so right and F1 so wrong?

Autosport respected vieuws? They defend mclaren to the bone for their anti-race tactics in melbourne 98 but attack ferrari when they do the same in 2002? Nigel Roebuck slamming schumacher week in and out and even went as far as comparing him to a gauleiter (nazi-wartime officer)? That same autosport who run an annual MCLARENS MASTERPLAN since 1997 with an issue full of blabbering about how great mclaren is? WHilst attacking shumi that he is too arrogant? In the meantime Autosport who ran an arrogant issue in 2000 saying BUTTON: DRIVER OF THE DECADE while that driver of the decade has won exactly 1(one)race the last 8 years? Pu-lease. Autosport is as coloured as you can be. Oh, and BBCs F1 editor, and a guy who is in love with hamilton, andrew benson, was also a former Autosport editor.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Its strange you think alonso sould be the bigger man while a lot of people think lewis should have been.

I agree both were as bad as eachother, and its not that I don't expect Lewis to behave in a good manner by being the better man its just that as the double reigning (at the time) world champion I expected better of Fernando.

The point about bringing 6 tenths wasnt so bad if you consider mclaren was more than a sceond behind ferrari at the last race of 2006

In a different car they were over a second behind yes. But what does that have to do with the 2007 car? As you know, time can be found by improving the design over the winter, so why is it acceptable for Alonso to say its all from him. At the end of the day a percentage (even a large one) can come from his input, but not all of it his, and not all of it is made by him and him alone. There is a team of designers at work there without whom Fernando could give all the development feedback he likes and he wouldn't get an extra anything, because he can't design the cars.

All in all you are basing your opinion on some very debatable assumptions

But with ALL debates, the basis of them will be formed on debateable assumptions. (yes some more debateable than others). But if we knew all 100% of the facts there wouldn't be a debate at all. One could argue that it's debatable that Hamilton really started the Hungary fiasco? How do we know that his apparent first move was actually retaliation for something Alonso had done off track?

I'll be honest I doubt that is the case but you get my point? We don't just know for sure. That's why there is a debate.

As for the reading the law book comment..people who state ferrari should be punished for letting such info leave the factory have no knowledge about law in general or crimes in particular. If they said that in jest then so where my comments. At no point it became rude or unacceptable. I think that saying the logic behind thinking ferrrai should be punished, is an idiotic one is also far from rude and it seems im not alone thinking that. More important it was attacking the post and not the poster. I fail to see the reason of your objection to it.

I wasn't upset about saying the logic is idiotic - it is idiotic to suggest Ferrari should be punished for being the victim of a crime. I was upset by the fact that your post (to my perspective at the time) seemed to be attacking the poster for views that he didn't actually hold. Basically I thought you were calling people idiots with no reason to do so (as nobody thinks that they should be punished for being the victims of theft).

Sorry to have misunderstood your post my friend, I hope no harm is done. Now - lets continue to debate!...

[Ciro Pabón]

Dear P.O.L.: in this forum we don't tell people they're "losing it". If you are posting here, that's solid proof you've already "lost it". Now, I'm not the guy that posts three times in sucession, ehem.

About your long post on my comment, I can only say something about your number 2 comment: I think you did not understood me. I'm not inventing the fact that Alonso told the FIA what he told the FIA. What he did could be justified (I think so) but some other people may think that's what made Alonso less "bright" for them. Now, the only recipe I know for people that rants about other persons that are trying to support their point of view is: breath.