Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[shady]

Reliability upgrades were a bypass to the token system, they don't bypass your parts allocation.

Youre misunderstanding slightly. If i upgrade my piston crown or head (to improve CVCC, and manage these 'vibrations') its still the same ICE, so it wouldnt count against my component allocation, but would get; in Hondas case, a 'reliability' upgrade. In the recent past it 'was' a bypass, but predates the current engine spec anyway, sort of an open loophole. The problem stems from the fact that the changing anything in these PUs has knock-on affects downstream, so feasibility then becomes the issue, using this path.

Once a PU is used in any session, nothing inside of it can be changed, for reliability or not.

You can apply to FIA F1 Engine distribution group, and replace the parts without penalty. I think 8 days notice is required. Though that was in 2015, I cannot find anything for this current season, which is why I asked.

[Craigy]

You can apply to FIA F1 Engine distribution group, and replace the parts without penalty. I think 8 days notice is required. Though that was in 2015, I cannot find anything for this current season, which is why I asked.

You can't replace the parts with parts of different design without using your engine allocation up, reliability or no.
Essentially, each manufacturer will only bring 3 iterations per season (planned).

If Honda need to they can bring 20, but after the first 4, every race with a new PU will be a penalty.

[ENGINE TUNER]

You can apply to FIA F1 Engine distribution group, and replace the parts without penalty. I think 8 days notice is required. Though that was in 2015, I cannot find anything for this current season, which is why I asked.

They were never ever allowed to change anything internal on the ICE (except spark plugs and coils) once the FIA put it's seal on it and it was used in a session. Opening that FIA seal put the engine out of the allocation, except if the engine was opened up in front of a FIA rep, inspected, and then resealed by the FIA. It was not allowed in 2015 or now.

[shady]

Ok, fair enough.

Then if you would kindly explain how reliability upgrades worked during the token era, and how they then didnt count against the PU allotment.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Ok, fair enough.

Then if you would kindly explain how reliability upgrades worked during the token era, and how they then didnt count against the PU allotment.

They were allowed "reliability" changes between engine allocation changes. So while they were racing the 1st PU for the season and developing the 2nd they could apply for "reliability" changes for the 2nd(but not touch the first). These "reliability" changes were different than performance changes which were regulated by the token system.

[3jawchuck]

Ok, fair enough.

Then if you would kindly explain how reliability upgrades worked during the token era, and how they then didnt count against the PU allotment.

Those components could be changed without spending a token in the next new engine used.

[ollandos]

guys why discuss reliability updgades?...first of all there is no time ...the best possilbly upgade for the team can be the weather for china ...honda need performance upgrades ..almost new ice ... and if they do its the 2d engine of the 4 for all season ...if can do that even for only one of the cars for bahrain its fantastic ...even with no any test ...honda must build and run the new engine on fp1-2 on bahrain ...maybe on the race for one car and at test after to be ready for max. performance at spain with this new engine ...its better to test on stoffel car or alonso than on bench ...they dont have any to loose even they have a dnf after 10 laps..

[glenntws]

I think there is some misunderstanding here. The vibration problems Honda has result out of the new crankshaft design or the firing order. Atleast that's what I think. The potential for harmonic vibrations rsulting out of bigger combustion vibrations are low, probably about Zero

The problem, why they (atleast it seems like that) didn't use TJI, is because of the faulty head design. They need to fix their rumoured problems with the valves and so on...

Vibration fix is relatively easy, it's jsut making the engine a big heavier. How long will the fix for the head take? Probably less than 2 months, it should be ready for spain.

The cleaner and less raspier Sound of the PU indicates, that no TJI has been used. I know it's not much and things like that can't be really seen in a "audio analysis". But if you hear closely, you can really somehow figure out that combustion is running "smoother".

[bigblue]

So there was a drop-in non-TJI head ready and waiting ? Sounds unlikely, but what do I know

[fenix4life]

guys why discuss reliability updgades?...first of all there is no time ...the best possilbly upgade for the team can be the weather for china ...honda need performance upgrades ..almost new ice ... and if they do its the 2d engine of the 4 for all season ...if can do that even for only one of the cars for bahrain its fantastic ...even with no any test ...honda must build and run the new engine on fp1-2 on bahrain ...maybe on the race for one car and at test after to be ready for max. performance at spain with this new engine ...its better to test on stoffel car or alonso than on bench ...they dont have any to loose even they have a dnf after 10 laps..

Then the big question.
What if they come with one engine and gamble this full power on the circuit.
Do you give it to Alonso or Stoffel. As you could ruin someones race if it's not working who do you choose.
First Stoffel so that you could give a tweaked engine the race after that for Alonso or you give it to Alonso because if it works he will tell

[godlameroso]

The potential for harmonic vibrations rsulting out of bigger combustion vibrations are low, probably about Zero

The sound frequency from combustion I speak of is more akin to heavy bass, the kind you can hear for blocks. This bass increases the further full combustion happens after TDC. While not the primary source of harmonic vibrations, it's part of the system aggregate.

So you say the combustion chamber part of the head is faulty?

There's numerous reasons for that, and if the solution is to make the block thicker, then that kind of makes the problem obvious. The head is warping under the extreme pressures, in addition to stress from chassis loading.

So is Honda TJI not being used because of the structural weakness of the head?

The McLaren chassis has some way to go as does the Honda engine, like I said before they're in egg stage.

[glenntws]

The potential for harmonic vibrations rsulting out of bigger combustion vibrations are low, probably about Zero

The sound frequency from combustion I speak of is more akin to heavy bass, the kind you can hear for blocks. This bass increases the further full combustion happens after TDC. While not the primary source of harmonic vibrations, it's part of the system aggregate.

So you say the combustion chamber part of the head is faulty?

There's numerous reasons for that, and if the solution is to make the block thicker, then that kind of makes the problem obvious. The head is warping under the extreme pressures, in addition to stress from chassis loading.

So is Honda TJI not being used because of the structural weakness of the head?

The McLaren chassis has some way to go as does the Honda engine, like I said before they're in egg stage.

Right. But the Problem they have to regulate throttle on shifts is because of harmonics. Even though a rough combustion is, just like you said, never good.

I'm sure the combustion chamber design is the reason. If they are casting a additional volume into the head, then this could get to a big Problem. Remember the idea for a combustion principle I showed maaaany pages ago? There was also a chamber which was casted into the head, in the center of the 4 valves where the spark plug would sit. The spark plug was still in the center, but moved to the top of the pre-chamber. If they use a concept, which is similar to that (Wazari's comment hinted that quite a bit IMO), you would have to deal with the pre-chamber pressure because it affects the movement of the port-walls and also the valve seats, because you get a more uneven pressure onto them.

This would also show the problem they have. The seats warp up a bit and the sealing of the chamber isn't fully working. Not that much that you would see any unusual fumes, but you lose cylinder pressure and the fear of valve wapring or intense seat damage is big.

[Rudex]

Ok, fair enough.

Then if you would kindly explain how reliability upgrades worked during the token era, and how they then didnt count against the PU allotment.

They were allowed "reliability" changes between engine allocation changes. So while they were racing the 1st PU for the season and developing the 2nd they could apply for "reliability" changes for the 2nd(but not touch the first). These "reliability" changes were different than performance changes which were regulated by the token system.

I precisely ask to Albert Fabrega this question. And he said it is possible.
They could have reliability upgrades. "Yes, FIA studies the proposal and considers it like reliability modification or if it increases the benefits. If it is reliability, it does not count as evolution"

[ENGINE TUNER]

Ok, fair enough.

Then if you would kindly explain how reliability upgrades worked during the token era, and how they then didnt count against the PU allotment.

They were allowed "reliability" changes between engine allocation changes. So while they were racing the 1st PU for the season and developing the 2nd they could apply for "reliability" changes for the 2nd(but not touch the first). These "reliability" changes were different than performance changes which were regulated by the token system.

I precisely ask to Albert Fabrega this question. And he said it is possible.
They could have reliability upgrades. "Yes, FIA studies the proposal and considers it like reliability modification or if it increases the benefits. If it is reliability, it does not count as evolution"

Once the FIA put that seal on the ICE and it is run in a session, it is not allowed to be opened or any parts changed at all. Once that seal is broken(except for FIA observed inspection), that ICE can not be used again.

What you(or Fabrega) are saying(or referring to) and what we are talking about are 2 different things.

[shady]

Reliability upgrades counted against PU allotment, however they did not count against the tokens. Which in this formula is redundant as theres no restriction.

Got it, thanks.