Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ziggy]

A lot can change in two years.

Yup, I thought that also, but sadly... Reading the last post from wazari I simply couldn't believe what he said. They didn't change their approach from 2015. Only Honda knows why not, we can only assume it.



Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

[Andres125sx]

Over and over again?

Maybe Im wrong, but we´re in 2017 and this is first time Honda is allowed to completely redesign their PU to finally solve the problems of their 2015 PU, as not even in past winter they were allowed to change their PU layout as much as needed

[ferkan]

Should have started with Merc style split turbo (or classic arrangement) in beginning but it was Honda that said "you cant beat them if you copy them". They fell for Merc trick, when Ferrari and Renault didnt. It wasnt and it isnt silver bullet, its combustion tech that was and is silver bullet. Unfortunatelly they spend quite a bit of time chasing ghosts and I dont think they will stop anytime soon.

People are talking about big advantages with packaging but I just dont see it. At least not to the percieved amount. Actually, Merc and McLaren dont seem to be any better packaged then Ferrari and RB. I do see plenty of drawbacks with Honda style split though (pre 2017), and frankly how did they decide to go that route is puzzling.

As for split non split...You can even argue that split turbo adds heavy shaft inside V. You probably save a bit on inlet lenght and you will have to find a way to get rid of heat transfer from turbine but thats about it. Frankly cars are so damn long these days that turbocompressor arrangemant is least of their problems (Merc engined cars are actually longest).

[GoranF1]

Should have started with Merc style split turbo (or classic arrangement) in beginning but it was Honda that said "you cant beat them if you copy them". They fell for Merc trick, when Ferrari and Renault didnt. It wasnt and it isnt silver bullet, its combustion tech that was and is silver bullet. Unfortunatelly they spend quite a bit of time chasing ghosts and I dont think they will stop anytime soon.

People are talking about big advantages with packaging but I just dont see it. At least not to the percieved amount. Actually, Merc and McLaren dont seem to be any better packaged then Ferrari and RB. I do see plenty of drawbacks with Honda style split though (pre 2017), and frankly how did they decide to go that route is puzzling.

As for split non split...You can even argue that split turbo adds heavy shaft inside V. You probably save a bit on inlet lenght and you will have to find a way to get rid of heat transfer from turbine but thats about it. Frankly cars are so damn long these days that turbocompressor arrangemant is least of their problems (Merc engined cars are actually longest).

I tought Ferrari and Renault both have the split TC since this year?

[diffuser]

Should have started with Merc style split turbo (or classic arrangement) in beginning but it was Honda that said "you cant beat them if you copy them". They fell for Merc trick, when Ferrari and Renault didnt. It wasnt and it isnt silver bullet, its combustion tech that was and is silver bullet. Unfortunatelly they spend quite a bit of time chasing ghosts and I dont think they will stop anytime soon.

People are talking about big advantages with packaging but I just dont see it. At least not to the percieved amount. Actually, Merc and McLaren dont seem to be any better packaged then Ferrari and RB. I do see plenty of drawbacks with Honda style split though (pre 2017), and frankly how did they decide to go that route is puzzling.

As for split non split...You can even argue that split turbo adds heavy shaft inside V. You probably save a bit on inlet lenght and you will have to find a way to get rid of heat transfer from turbine but thats about it. Frankly cars are so damn long these days that turbocompressor arrangemant is least of their problems (Merc engined cars are actually longest).

I thought the McDLT "hot side hot cold side cold" was the main reason for doing it ?

[taperoo2k]

This season is a write off for all teams not in the top three so as long as Hondo can get the engine competitive for 2018 that is all that matters. The only drawback is the brand damage that they and McLaren will both take along the way.

Honda have to realistically use 2017 to perfect it's new concept so they can be competitive in 2018. You would hope they've learned harsh lessons over the last couple of years, otherwise same old same old in 2018. I think the best hope for 2017 ? Honda quickly discover and fix the problems and by the end of the season have a much better package.

As for the brand damage ? Easily repaired if Honda manage to produce a competitive PU and McLaren deliver on the chassis side and they win multiple races and can challenge for the titles. Though that is quite a way off at the moment.

Would add that Honda could have copied the Mercedes concept, but even going down that development path would have been extremely difficult given Mercedes started work on it years in advance and we never really saw the failures, just whiffs of rumour and speculation. Honda's has aired it's dirty development laundry in the full glare of the media spotlight and have become the whipping boys for the F1 press pack.

Clearly Honda need to get on top of whatever is causing the issue with it's new concept quickly, then they can crack on with developing the new concept or worst case - scrap it entirely and go with another concept. They've probably got plenty to choose from if what's been posted in recent months is anything to go by.

[loner]

worst case - scrap it entirely and go with another concept. They've probably got plenty to choose from if what's been posted in recent months is anything to go by.

i highly doubt they will change the layout again , the most important thing that the layout is working (the cars already hit the track even with bugs)
they never should put the compressor in the V from the beginning but in a positive note
they will recover fast in 2017 from the experiences they gained in the past 2 years.

[godlameroso]

They didn't have to get TJI to work in the last 2 years, it's a new concept for them, but once they get it, there will be a massive step forward.

[loner]

They didn't have to get TJI to work in the last 2 years, it's a new concept for them, but once they get it, there will be a massive step forward.

yep Honda not paying hundreds of millions , for the people to say oh look Mclaren is great
its a learning scheme.

[Manoah2u]

theoretically it sounds all great, but in theory i could be multi-millionaire in a couple of hours should i go to the casino and place the bets on the right places. theoretically, i could even calculate the chances and do some research to up my chances, which theoretically could increase my chances and theory that i'm a millionaire before midnight.

theory and reality however are a different thing.

Honda theorized that what they're doing now, when they finally understand and get it right, will bring them an engine better than the competition. But they were saying that with 2015's config also. And on what base have they come to this idea? Their entire theory could be flawed. even more if they based their ideas on Merc's 2014 engine, which is now outdated compared to the 2017 specs.

Don't get me wrong, i don't think one should underestimate Honda, but then again, i didn't expect a company the size and capacity/quality of Honda to have this result today.

I don't really get that concept of demanding to do everything in-house. if the knowledge and capacity isnt there, its never going to get there. I don't see the problem of aquiring the expertise of people like Mario Illien to take a look and bring some advise. He might come 'from outside' but his advise will land 'in house' and then suddenly they are atleast able to calculate that 1+???=2 and that the ??? wasn't 1, it was actually 1+(3x2-5)=2.

but let's simply await Monaco. i expected worse than a possible P10 for Alonso, even if it wasn't representative of their real position.

[GoranF1]

https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848205869481209856 https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848206508428902400 https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848206241268551680 https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848207054812598272 https://twitter.com/metinmete/status/848207328524369920

[ziggy]

theory and reality however are a different thing.

Exactly. AVL has de facto a monopoly. Its a must have to have their test stand. We saw pics of mercedes and red bull full chasssis + PU test rig. We also know honda didnd't have (Mclaren)chassis on the dyno.

I don't really get that concept of demanding to do everything in-house. if the knowledge and capacity isnt there, its never going to get there. I don't see the problem of aquiring the expertise of people like Mario Illien to take a look and bring some advise. He might come 'from outside' but his advise will land 'in house' and then suddenly they are atleast able to calculate that 1+???=2 and that the ??? wasn't 1, it was actually 1+(3x2-5)=2.

I would say it's always better to have all the tech and expertise. I have no doubt about Hondas knowledge and ressources, but the time is their enemy. While this strategy probably works in automotive bussines, its a big fail in F1.
F1 these days is moving way to fast to develop all parts by yourself.

Lets say you are working on a prototype. You probably won't develop and produce all the the basic tools like screw drivers etc. You just buy them and concetrate on the things that aren't available elsewhere.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I know from experience that tire torsional frequencies are VERY low and unlikely to interact with anything else in the driveline.

Are you talking about F1 tires? Fair question, as I guess the high rigidity of F1 tires makes them a lot more prone to suffer higher frequency resonance than any other soft road tire

F1 tires have a very tall sidewall - regardless how stiff the rubber is, the wheel will have a very low torsional stiffness overall.

Edit: I think I called the upshift into low speed detonations first. Unless the jurnos use the forum as a 'credible source' and recycle our dumb theories.

[bigblue]

Can someone explain or theorise in simple terms why a single cyclinder would work well, but three or six do not ? Seems quite odd intuitively.

[makecry]

They didn't have to get TJI to work in the last 2 years, it's a new concept for them, but once they get it, there will be a massive step forward.

We have been waiting for this massive step forward since 2015 now. Makes me wonder if it's ever gonna come.