Honda F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa has outlined a number of reasons why Honda has been struggling so badly in the beginning of the 2017 Formula One season. He confirmed that lots of problems were not discovered while running on the dynamo meter.
They'll see a performance boost just from sorting out the resonance issues with the chassis. Then the head upgrade should bring a sizable chunk of it works like they saw with the single cylinder.
If sims are anything to go by, if I wind the engine out to where Honda is ~12,600rpm vs a more reasonable 11,800, I actually lose about 2-3 seconds per lap, so I'm inclined to agree with you.
No matter which way you look at it, in the End it comes down to apparently not having a full chassis Dyno and not allowing enough Time to actually Test Things before they are signed off.
Not only that. The majority of honda software is in japanese language. We saw some screenshots with japanese letters and without a proper translation, one simply doesen't know, what he's looking at. Now imagine how the mercedes or renault guys can just make a screenshot one the pc and send it over to the chassis guys. Honda has to do translations and its complicated. We have problems to translate a simple article from JAP to ENG, how hard it must be to translate a heavy technical document?
And no, this post is not bashing honda or the Japanese people. Just discussion.
My understanding is Honda uses English Documentation everywhere internally. All the coding will be in English (they'd have to write their own programming language to do it otherwise) and documented in English.
They'll see a performance boost just from sorting out the resonance issues with the chassis. Then the head upgrade should bring a sizable chunk of it works like they saw with the single cylinder.
Where did hear about a head upgrade ? He mentions Intake, Exhaust.
They'll see a performance boost just from sorting out the resonance issues with the chassis. Then the head upgrade should bring a sizable chunk of it works like they saw with the single cylinder.
Where did hear about a head upgrade ? He mentions Intake, Exhaust.
At the site given first link hasegawa-san talk about head desingning and new desingning will be ready for sochi or spain
Last edited by etusch on 03 Apr 2017, 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
They'll see a performance boost just from sorting out the resonance issues with the chassis. Then the head upgrade should bring a sizable chunk of it works like they saw with the single cylinder.
Where did hear about a head upgrade ? He mentions Intake, Exhaust.
At the site given first link hasegawa-san talk about head desingning and new desingning will be sochi or spain
yep not sure which link that is ... I tried them all.
1. Combustion problem(found out in Dec. 2016 when complete PU was put on dyno)
Back pressure from exhaust not expected in complete V6 so leading to A/F problem?(detonation,nuking pistons)
Firing order?
2. Vibrations problem(found out on first photo test Feb 2017)
Only as a complete unit(PU,Trans in Car)
Under estimated the force from the new formula(more downforce, bigger tires)
1. Combustion problem(found out in Dec. 2016 when complete PU was put on dyno)
Back pressure from exhaust not expected in complete V6 so leading to A/F problem?(detonation,nuking pistons)
Firing order?
2. Vibrations problem(found out on first photo test Feb 2017)
Only as a complete unit(PU,Trans in Car)
Under estimated the force from the new formula(more downforce, bigger tires)
It would be beneficial for them if fixing the first went a long ways on mitigating the 2nd.
pretty obvious Honda philosophy now , do your utmost efforts and let the weight reduction do its magic
still think we will see the new PU in the post Bahrain test days
2nd winter testing summary article
dotted parts for Hasegawa quote
https://sportiva.shu...5/f1___split_4/
2017.03.25
trouble on Day 2 of test 2: water leak due to crack on carbon pipe (of chassis side) attached to compressor
troubles on Day 3&4 of test 2: chassis harness
(info in the article)
It's only the stoppages that's focused on, but rather than that, the real major issue is that the performance is not good when running normally. In fact regarding the new spec PU, there is almost no trouble in this past 3 days (Days 2~4 of Test 2). However, the speed...we are feeling/under considerable urgency/pressure.
The form/structure of combustion has got genuinely and completely new, so there were many things that we have not understood fully yet.
There is certain knack involved in making jet ignition combustion work. Honda havent been able to grasp it fully yet. Therefore power does not come, vibration occurs too. It depends on whether they will be able to mature mapping around it based on the data gathered in 3 days of testing within the 2 weeks before season opener, it's a race against time.
(unnamed personnel involved with Honda quoted)
In order to make fundamental increase in power, they need to grasp the knack more precisely and revise the shape of chamber in ICE. Season opener spec is still bit below 2016's spec 3.5 (the final spec)
(ditto: these info sorta contradict with Hasegawa remarks, so I wonder who the source is)
As for RA617H, we had just started its development from May last year, so we are not able to spend even 1 year yet for the new concept of this engine. There was no possibility of making further gain if we had just continued to work on the extension of last year's, so we redesigned from complete blank paper, also circumstance was such that we had no other options. Technology wise the situation was "this is the way we are going to, isnt it", and no one had any doubt about it. However, the matter was about "will we really make it in time?", "can we really do it?", etc.
I do have remorse/regret about being unable to prepare better PU. If there was more time, we would have been able to make better preparation. But we do not have any regret, even 1mm, about selecting this technology. All the technologies we intend to work/pursue has been included/introduced. I think it's commendable that we managed to introduce them all and stand on the starting line. Members of HRD Sakura have done exceptional job indeed. So I'd like to at least give passing mark for being able to start off the season with what we actually have like this. However, result is everything about the race, so I'm fully aware that we cannot receive passing mark from the public.
In testing: cutting bodywork to open cooling outlet (must be the cockpit side one which was captured in photos), applying grind work on the edge of bargeboard, white smoke emitting from brake duct every time the car makes slow speed running in installation lap
(info in the article)
At post testing summary session, not only the lack of power and vibration of PU, but also understeery tendency and peaky characteristics of chassis have been understood/shared (unnamed team personnel quoted)
Just power deficit cannot make such difference in laptime, so engineers of the team are aware of shortages on chassis side as well. Engineers on both sides are admitting/sharing shortages of each other, so I think we can work on it and sort it out together.
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>> Melbourne <<
dotted parts for Hasegawa quote except the interview transcript article
sources are the linked websites as well as all those print magazines etc
================================================
(on winter testing)
In the 1st testing week, we had troubles in oil tank on the 1st day, engine on 2nd day. We haven't disclosed the details of the trouble, but we took countermeasures.
Regarding the oil tank trouble, it's structural matter. There are baffle plates inside the tank, it seems that its shape was not appropriate so that the engine couldnt pump up oil smoothly. Regarding this issue, we've worked on modification. It was such a trivial trouble, so I feel it's shame to be regarded as if that's the sole/definite cause of the troubles.
--
On the 1st day of 2nd testing week, the high voltage system has fallen into the state of insulation fault. We are not sure exactly to what extent we've managed to solve it, but I think we've addressed all the major issues. Also, there was water leak on radiator on the 2nd day.
For the final 2 days, it was a trouble caused by the car's vibration. It's not a trouble of/in the engine itself. Actual troubles are cracks in carbon pipe, harness disconnected etc on chassis side.
Asked if it wouldn't have occurred had vibration from engine disappeared, we cannot tell. The car rode on kerbs and vibrated; it is certain that there was influence by that. If there is such kind of weakness on chassis, that's a concern.
--
We exchanged engine several times in order to fix ancillaries. That must be why it was thought/reported like 5 engines have broken down, but we haven't disclosed the number of engines used.
--
Regarding driveability, I reckon it has improved. It's something you can work on on dyno at Sakura, so we've worked on it before coming here. However, we haven't run it on track yet, so as of today we do not know how effective it is.
Regarding the power shortage and speed shortage Alonso pointed out, we don't know for certain to be frank because we haven't compared with other cars yet. However, we realize that it is our subject. We haven't reached the target yet, so.
However, even though we cannot disclose numbers, I think we have more power than we did at the point of Abu Dhabi last year. But drag has increased, tyre width got broader as well, so drivers may feel like speed has decreased.
--
Regarding the rumor that McLaren is negotiating with Mercedes, that's not coming from the team but just what media are writing. Therefore, regarding this subject it's no comment from us as Honda. However, it's just a matter of course that any teams would want quality engine. Christian Horner was once saying they wanted much better engine when Renault engine was not in good shape. That you want quality engine is the same for any teams. We as Honda must make a preparation such that we don't get told something like that.
There are some clear discrepancies between this article in Japanese by Kunihiko Akai and the Noble's English article featuring Akai's "additional report" below. If this Japanese article (or "common draft/transcript" for it) by Akai is the absolute original, then those parts in Noble's version that differ from Akai's are due to either dodgy translation (either google - in fact many expressions and choice of words are identical to what google translate does - or manual) or outright fabrication or "convenient interpretation" by Noble (unless it's Akai's very article that is "modified" from Akai's own original "common draft/transcript").
https://www.motorspo...lian-gp-885008/
===========================
Stoffel stayed in garage after the installation lap:
- fitting and removing aero measuring device
- choosing cooling config for sidepod
Alonso: at the end of FP1, mechanics were applying grind work on brake cover
--
To begin with, we were not supposed to make full use of FP period to make a lot of running throughout the session today, but intended to use sessions for changing setup and analyzing data, so we were able to consume all the planned program today.
We are slower by 8~9km/h on straight speed. Such gap at this track is severe. Of course there are some things we need to work on in the car's overall settings as well, but the biggest factor of all was the slow top speed on straights.
(asked when they realized lack of power) You cannot know how much power other makers are achieving. In that sense, it was at Barcelona testing when we realized it explicitly. Inside Honda we knew we were not reaching our target in much earlier stage tho.
(regarding new spec PU) I'd like to introduce without taking 2 months if possible. As long as the development of new spec is completed, I want to introduce it as soon as possible. If it would be completed tomorrow, I want to introduce tomorrow.
https://jp.motorspor...カ月後-885571/?s=1
2017-03-24
Today was the first day so car setup was the major task. Basically there was no big issue, so it was stable day. It might have looked like the mileage we made in the morning was short, but we conducted aero measurement with Stoffel's car, so it was just taking time for mounting and dismounting the device for that.
When the afternoon session began, Alonso's car was still without the floor so we couldn't start running immediately. We removed the floor in order to change various aero settings.
2 drivers conducted different programs. We decided to let Vandoorne run longer, so we made a long run in the afternoon with him. But today we were able to consume all the planned programs.
As an impression after finishing the first day, it's quite tough, that's our honest impression. Straight speed was inferior to top group by 8-9km/h, so. That we are beaten that much on this track means it will be even more severe on other tracks. Power deficit is big.
The primary issue is the absolute and unequivocal lack of power. In order to increase power, you need to improve combustion efficiency, but you have to apply hardware modification into the current PU for that. We are developing new spec PU, but it will take some time to finish. We hope to complete and introduce it within 2 months if possible.
Vibration wasnt much of an issue today. But it was still happening abit on shift-up, so if we solve that we may be able to shed some laptime. As comments from drivers, they said oscillation was still persistent, same as before. It always happens when you shift up, but it just doesn't seem to disappear. That's the issue.
(one of the biggest differences b/w this year's PU and last year's is in MGU-H layout) From this year, we changed MGU-H's location. Which means we overhauled the package. But, it's not that the power has increased by that. Rather the center of gravity has been lowered. Lowering cog of PU should have good contribution to the improvement of motion/vehicle characteristics/performance of the car as a whole.
Last year it was said that the cornering performance was not good, but relocation of MGU-H must be contributing quite a lot to the improvement of that. Besides, engine weight has become lighter, so we are able to make more efficient use of ballast. But media don't take/pick up something like that too much.
[]
(nuance of "within 2 months" is more like "as early as possible no matter what", so there is not too much significance in "2 months", more like 2 months rather than 3 or 4 months which tend to be sort of the norm for engine development. So those media writing specific dates and GPs for upgrade PU are jumping on to easy conclusion or just completely guessing, 100%. Opportunities like this clearly reveals who are faux alchemists and what they do in daily basis. It's fun to observe how they fabricate gold out of fresh cream or crop to pretend they know it and propagate false info, really comical.)
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With the new gen machine whose characteristics has become more dynamic, it was a quali where Alonso proved his worth even more prominently.
(on Vandoorne's issue of low fuel pressure) Air intruded into the fuel line for whatever reasons and disrupted the fuel flow/injection.
> team called him in to pit, put more fuel than supposed to and conducted inspection lap, there was no problem so sent him out on track again
>> however SV slotted just in front of Alonso so the team ordered SV to let Alonso go first on track, so SV couldn't warm up tyre enough for his attack lap
(info in the article)
Our team has 2 talented drivers. Team performance includes driver's prowess as well. It will be tough race, but when the opportunity comes, our drivers possess the aptitude necessary for seizing that opportunity definitely.
=========
https://jp.motorspor...いない-886138/?s=1
2017-03-25
I think all cars ran with max power. This result in Quali shows the team's comprehensive performance at this moment including drivers, I reckon. The issue of power shortage that we had at testing hasn't changed for here as well. But here at Melbourne the time gap was not as big as we thought it would be, so that was relief. We thought the gap would be much bigger. But, the next race at Shanghai there is a long straight so that's intimidating a bit.
Stoffel suffered from low fuel pressure as soon as he went out on track to make his 1st attack lap. The power dropped as a result so we called him in to pit for refuel and sent him out again. But he was forced to abort the 2nd attack lap too for the same issue.
This trouble is not related to hardware, but that vacuuming / removing the air from inside the fuel pipe was not done properly was the cause. Collector tank was providing appropriate pressure, but it has encountered vapor lock, or air was disturbing at the terminal port. His time was set in the 3rd attack lap.
Alonso showed great driving in his final attack lap. With a car whose characteristic has become more dynamic with increased cornering speed, his true value has been demonstrated / emphasized even more.
He came back to pit reporting loss of power during the 1st attack lap in Q2, but the reason hasn't been identified yet. He said the power has been lost when he rode on a kerb and fell from it, that it was the same trouble as what happened previously, but it didn't suffer shut down like it did before. Perhaps (ES) energy has been used up completely. He was saying the same in the final attack lap too, but we saw he has used up all the energy of 4MJ completely.
【】
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Sunday
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http://f1sokuho.mopi...no=107208&tt=-1
2017年3月27日
Yet again it was a race in which we reaffirmed that Fernando is such an incredible driver.
(Alo managed to hold Hulk from lap 1 to 1st stop and Ocon from 1st stop til retire practically)
It looked as if he was threatened by Ocon during 2nd half of the race, but actually he was deliberately letting Ocon come within 1sec of him to make Ocon use DRS, in order to prevent Ocon from being passed by Hulkenberg who was approaching from behind.
It was such extraordinary/inhuman driving. Unfortunately he had to retire due to suspension trouble in the end, but had it not been for the trouble, he would've been able to finish 10th securely, so it was such shame.
--
(on Vandoorne) Today various troubles that are nothing to do with his responsibility have fallen on him, but he coped with them calmly without panic.
steering display went off immediately after the start, then suffered from ERS electrical issue several laps into the race (info in the article)
--
It is positive that we have not encountered any major issue in reliability in the opening race, but it's merely one race. We cannot feel safe yet, and more than anything, this position is not the place we want to be.
==============
------ What is your review of the race?
Considering our situation in winter testing, I think everyone has done amazing job, but we were unable to complete the race, also if you consider the situation that we had no choice but to compete in a position where we don't want to be, I cannot be pleased thoroughly.
------ Is Alonso's issue on chassis side?
It was suspension issue. In appearance it didn't look broken, but the car was slanted, so I heard. It's the right suspension that broke (presumably front). There was no problem in engine, so if without the suspension issue, we could've finished in the points.
------ Vandoorne was reporting power loss in the middle.
At around lap 4, he suffered from electrical issue. The pit ordered him to clear the bug, but it didn't go well, so we had him return to the pit in order to reboot the system. Furthermore, indicator/screen on steering wheel went off, so we had no choice but to reset the system. It must have been such busy race for Stoffel.
----- What was the symptom of the trouble?
Electrical malfunction has occurred and regeneration of turbocharger has stopped. Maybe we could've tried rebooting while running on the track. I guess it was actually possible. But if it failed in that, then it would be totally over, so we had him pit for repair in order to avoid that risk. After that, there was no problem.
------ Next race is Shanghai that has proper long straights. What is the prospect?
There is no doubt that power shortage issue will manifest. That's quite a concern for us. But it's also about how to evaluate it as comprehensive performance of car's total balance, so power is not everything. In that sense, we were able to race by holding the car behind on straight today, so I don't necessarily think it will be totally hopeless. However, lack of power will be an issue certainly.
------ What is your assessment of drivers?
Alonso has shown incredible race. He kept Esteban Ocon who was creeping in from behind within 1sec, yet managed to not be overtaken. If within 1sec to the car in front of you, Ocon can make use of DRS, which means he can maintain the speed. As a result of that, Ocon can fend off Nico Hulkenberg who is closing in on him. If Hulkenberg goes ahead of Ocon, chances of being overtaken gets higher, so. To sum it up, it was extraordinary/inhuman/etc driving in order to not be overtaken by the 2 cars on the absolute edge.
Vandoorne has done stable job, he handled the start and operations without mistake, so clever and steady driver. Troubles in both quali and early in the race were outside his control, so we as a team are feeling sorry for him.
Friday Morning: Brown, Boullier, Hasegawa and all the team members gathered in the garage; Boullier said to staffs "many things are being talked about among the public, but our partner is Honda. We are united as one team and do our utmost". (info in the article)
--
(on Quali) In terms of extracting maximum performance out of machine package and drivers, it was positive. But it's also true that we were able to do that much because some rookie drivers in other teams were struggling, so, taking car's potential into consideration, it's remarkable that we managed to go that far, to be honest.
--
We were beaten on the straght by 8~9km/h (note that it's quote from Friday), so having such gap is severe. After all, the power difference has significant influence. Of course car's setup has not been settled completely yet as we are discussing it like understeer, oversteer and such, but by far the most significant factor of all is that straight speed was slow.
--
Mapping optimization has been done a lot on dyno, so that part has been improved considerably. But in terms of output we are yet to reach our own target, and in order to increase power you need the improvement on ICE itself, so it cannot be done overnight. We recognize that's our biggest subject to tackle.
--
As for the car's characteristics, it's still understeery. That we are unable to heat tyre well is the cause for it. As soon as it gets warmed up, tyre suffers from overheat and rear gets unstable. (unnamed team engineer quoted)
Quali
Vandoorne
fuel pressure drop due to air mixed in fuel
Alonso
was on the used set of ultra soft (presumably for the final attack), thus unable to take final corner at full throttle, applied slight pedal lifting works at full throttle range so that wastegate valve opened in order to prevent excessive surge of turbo pressure, therefore losing power at the end of the lap
(info in the article: I'm not sure what Alonso's part precisely means by that. SV's air issue, as well as other issues in race, was what Hasegawa said,as reported by other articles/journos as well, so could be that Hasegawa explained on this too but author paraphrased it, but the author dont understand what it is about, perhaps. As I always complain, they better just put original remark)
Race
Vandoorne
on the grid before the start: data not indicated on the PC connected to the car (details like what sort of PC/data trouble for how long etc not specified in the article)
after the start: steering screen froze by showing "outlap"
> team gave him wrong order when resetting/recovering it, ending up with resetting different function by mistake
>> in the end electronic control system gave error message, automatically stopping MGU-H recovery
>>> needed to come in to the pit in order to restart the power for the whole system
[info in the article: seems from Hasegawa remarks because in the other articles Hasegawa is quoted exactly on this. (or are any of these info from McLaren Live powered by SAP or whatever official?) ]
(on Alonso driving) While defending the position from Ocon, Alonso also kept him within 1sec to let him use DRS so that Hulk who was coming behind them wouldn't overtake Ocon. It wouldve been tough to keep the position if Hulk had gone ahead of Ocon. But he didn't show any slightest opportunity. Furthermore, he was saving fuel at the same time, so that was extraordinary/inhuman driving indeed. Truly incredible.
--
MCL32 has undergone significant weight reduction, its weight well below the minimum weight of 728kg. You get more free ballast for that amount so that's good in optimizing weight balance and cog, but when they actually weighed the assembled car, it was lighter than expected to the extent that there was concern that there would be shortage of ballast. (info in the article)
--
As Alonso said too, this is not a position where we want to be racing, so. In that sense, it's not something we can be satisfied with at all. Same goes for development that's not going as well as we hope/aim it to be. The direction of development is settled, so as a developer we've just got to proceed the task accordingly. But as a competitor who's racing in this sport, we cannot think like "that's fine then, it's ok to be beaten while working on the development.". After all we cannot talk about it without mentioning emotional aspect, so as a feeling, the sentiment that we are totally useless/unacceptable in this way is much much bigger.
--
(regarding those rumors about relationship of McLaren Honda) Totally irrespective of what team may or may not be doing, whether we are made to be at fault by media or not, or whatever else, it's us who are feeling frustrated the most, and know about our shortage the most. Rather, I'm truly grateful to McLaren for providing us all the support, to this much. Therefore, the rest is upon us, it's up to us to respond with the outcome.
==============
http://f1sokuho.mopi...no=107286&tt=-1
2017年3月30日
We do not have recognition that vibration has increased due to performance improvement of the engine.
Asked if it's due to the new layout (moving turbo out of V), Hasegawa denied it unequivocally.
Mapping has improved considerably since testing, but drivers report persistent oscillation. Fact of the matter is that vibration thing being talked widely a lot is about this post-shift oscillation ie resonance after shift change. Especially conspicuous when shift up
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."
MCL32 has undergone significant weight reduction, its weight well below the minimum weight of 728kg. You get more free ballast for that amount so that's good in optimizing weight balance and cog, but when they actually weighed the assembled car, it was lighter than expected to the extent that there was concern that there would be shortage of ballast. (info in the article)
I really had to laugh about this particular statement! I've read an article about Perez having to lose weight after the test sessions because FI found out its car was too heavy http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3508 ... ight-loss/.
And here McLaren-Honda states their car is so light they were worried about shortage of ballast
Talking about contrast!
[quote=JonoNic]
I'm unfortunately not able to understand what you guys are talking about. So is it more or less these vibrations that you are referring to? http://www.dssmicro.com/theory/th_recip_vibs.htm[/quote]
this reference shows that when a 4 cylinder engine has 1 faulty cylinder it produces a characteristic vibration peak at half engine frequency
imo similar to our case (variability of combustion on some cylinders)
btw aircraft having twin plugs and magnetos, a fouled plug will produce this effect
the cure is to clean the plug by running the engine quite hard (not full throttle) for 5 minutes with the mixture leaned as much as possible
best if no-one sees you
