Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

How much lead time is there from pre chamber to main chamber full combustion? In other words is the full process comparable to standard spark ignition? Or even with the pre chamber lead time is it still faster?

Also do the majority of the species develop in the pre chamber or main chamber?

Thanks in advance.

[JuanjoTS]

How much lead time is there from pre chamber to main chamber full combustion? In other words is the full process comparable to standard spark ignition? Or even with the pre chamber lead time is it still faster?

Also do the majority of the species develop in the pre chamber or main chamber?

Thanks in advance.

The waiting time in the combustion preheater is the one necessary for the pre-combustion diesel spark plug (heater) together with the turbulent pressure to initiate combustion in the pre-chamber which acts as the spark of a conventional gasoline spark plug.
Admission to the pre-chamber occurs later than in the main chamber, occurs at compression time, its combustion is anticipated with the help of heaters, the pre-combustion chamber mixing assembly plus the diesel-type heater acts as a spark plug Immensely more powerful gasoline, getting making the blast more complete and focused, increasing engine life by subjecting the cylinder walls to less temperature.

In short, there is no waiting time in the pre-combustion chamber, basically everything is produced faster, the admission begins at the time of compression, not at the intake, its combustion is earlier than the main chamber assisted For the heater-spark plug, this pre-explosion is used as a substitute for the conventional spark plug. Summary, the admission is later than that of the main chamber, the combustion is anterior to that of the main chamber.
Between 97 and 95% of the explosion occurs in the main combustion chamber, between 3 and 5% occurs in the pre-combustion chamber. Generally speaking it is about creating a super-spark plug.

[tom101]

I read Hasegawa's last interview yesterday and I still can not believe

All the optimism we shared the last months, all the good results on the test bench... And all this about a 1 cylinder engine


They did not assemble the V6 until Christmas, and finally realized that the power of a 6 cylinder engine may not be the same as the power of a 1 cylinder engine multiplied by 6, but it was too late

The good news is that the new pu gets almost 2016pu power with less weight

[PlatinumZealot]

Mclaren can blame Honda's 10kg lighter PU for that 'problem'.

We don't know how heavy any of the power units are or were.
It's quite feasible that the Honda was overweight last year, and still is this year, given the lack of public info about the weights of any of the engines. The same is true of all of them.

Lowering the weight is of course good, but without context we simply don't know if it's competitive or not in this regard.

This is correct because the PU's have minimum weight limits. Then again... there is built in ballast within the engine. A lighter engine allows you to shift that non-structural weight downwards to lower the center of gravity. And Hasegawa did say that the engine has a very low CoG so we can take it as the non-ballast part of the engine is below the minimum weight.

[PlatinumZealot]

But if injector is in the pre-chamber ( i think it is in that) how it can inject it to the main chamber and how it can just keep second injection in pre-chamber. İf it were not direct injection or double injector per cylinder it is easier.
Also I want to learn that isn't mixture in the main chamber enters to the pre-chamber during compression and cant it be ignited to ignite main chamber?

I thought there were two injectors - a direct injector for the lean mix in the cylinder and a separate injector for the pre-chamber.

My theory since 2014 is that two injectors are used, and the injector inside the pre-chamber is not considered a direct injector.

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of
the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and
the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

[JuanjoTS]

But if injector is in the pre-chamber ( i think it is in that) how it can inject it to the main chamber and how it can just keep second injection in pre-chamber. İf it were not direct injection or double injector per cylinder it is easier.
Also I want to learn that isn't mixture in the main chamber enters to the pre-chamber during compression and cant it be ignited to ignite main chamber?

I thought there were two injectors - a direct injector for the lean mix in the cylinder and a separate injector for the pre-chamber.

My theory since 2014 is that two injectors are used, and the injector inside the pre-chamber is not considered a direct injector.

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of
the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and
the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

There is no injector in the pre-chamber, the filling of the pre-chamber occurs at the time of compression of the main chamber of the cylinder.

Calling it pre-camera can lead to errors, if we talk about admission would be sub-camera, since its filling is later than the main camera,If we talk about explosion it's pre-chamber, the explosion occurs prior to that of the main camera (Is used as a super spark plug )

Ideally, it should be called a pre-combustion chamber to avoid misunderstandings.

[godlameroso]

How much lead time is there from pre chamber to main chamber full combustion? In other words is the full process comparable to standard spark ignition? Or even with the pre chamber lead time is it still faster?

Also do the majority of the species develop in the pre chamber or main chamber?

Thanks in advance.

The waiting time in the combustion preheater is the one necessary for the pre-combustion diesel spark plug (heater) together with the turbulent pressure to initiate combustion in the pre-chamber which acts as the spark of a conventional gasoline spark plug.
Admission to the pre-chamber occurs later than in the main chamber, occurs at compression time, its combustion is anticipated with the help of heaters, the pre-combustion chamber mixing assembly plus the diesel-type heater acts as a spark plug Immensely more powerful gasoline, getting making the blast more complete and focused, increasing engine life by subjecting the cylinder walls to less temperature.

In short, there is no waiting time in the pre-combustion chamber, basically everything is produced faster, the admission begins at the time of compression, not at the intake, its combustion is earlier than the main chamber assisted For the heater-spark plug, this pre-explosion is used as a substitute for the conventional spark plug. Summary, the admission is later than that of the main chamber, the combustion is anterior to that of the main chamber.
Between 97 and 95% of the explosion occurs in the main combustion chamber, between 3 and 5% occurs in the pre-combustion chamber. Generally speaking it is about creating a super-spark plug.

The regulations state that you have to use a standard spark plug, no fancy stuff allowed.

5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.
The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.
Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.
Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

[JuanjoTS]

How much lead time is there from pre chamber to main chamber full combustion? In other words is the full process comparable to standard spark ignition? Or even with the pre chamber lead time is it still faster?

Also do the majority of the species develop in the pre chamber or main chamber?

Thanks in advance.

The waiting time in the combustion preheater is the one necessary for the pre-combustion diesel spark plug (heater) together with the turbulent pressure to initiate combustion in the pre-chamber which acts as the spark of a conventional gasoline spark plug.
Admission to the pre-chamber occurs later than in the main chamber, occurs at compression time, its combustion is anticipated with the help of heaters, the pre-combustion chamber mixing assembly plus the diesel-type heater acts as a spark plug Immensely more powerful gasoline, getting making the blast more complete and focused, increasing engine life by subjecting the cylinder walls to less temperature.

In short, there is no waiting time in the pre-combustion chamber, basically everything is produced faster, the admission begins at the time of compression, not at the intake, its combustion is earlier than the main chamber assisted For the heater-spark plug, this pre-explosion is used as a substitute for the conventional spark plug. Summary, the admission is later than that of the main chamber, the combustion is anterior to that of the main chamber.
Between 97 and 95% of the explosion occurs in the main combustion chamber, between 3 and 5% occurs in the pre-combustion chamber. Generally speaking it is about creating a super-spark plug.

The regulations state that you have to use a standard spark plug, no fancy stuff allowed.

5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.
The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.
Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.
Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

Does not indicate voltage-operating temperature, I mean a single spark plug. The only fantasy is 400 pages talking about harmonic absurdities.
By the way, nothing for the explanation of the tji ... I point the moon and you look at the finger

[godlameroso]

The waiting time in the combustion preheater is the one necessary for the pre-combustion diesel spark plug (heater) together with the turbulent pressure to initiate combustion in the pre-chamber which acts as the spark of a conventional gasoline spark plug.
Admission to the pre-chamber occurs later than in the main chamber, occurs at compression time, its combustion is anticipated with the help of heaters, the pre-combustion chamber mixing assembly plus the diesel-type heater acts as a spark plug Immensely more powerful gasoline, getting making the blast more complete and focused, increasing engine life by subjecting the cylinder walls to less temperature.

In short, there is no waiting time in the pre-combustion chamber, basically everything is produced faster, the admission begins at the time of compression, not at the intake, its combustion is earlier than the main chamber assisted For the heater-spark plug, this pre-explosion is used as a substitute for the conventional spark plug. Summary, the admission is later than that of the main chamber, the combustion is anterior to that of the main chamber.
Between 97 and 95% of the explosion occurs in the main combustion chamber, between 3 and 5% occurs in the pre-combustion chamber. Generally speaking it is about creating a super-spark plug.

The regulations state that you have to use a standard spark plug, no fancy stuff allowed.

5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.
The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.
Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.
Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

Does not indicate voltage-operating temperature, I mean a single spark plug. The only fantasy is 400 pages talking about harmonic absurdities.
By the way, nothing for the explanation of the tji ... I point the moon and you look at the finger

Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.

I mean technically you're right, but which element retains the heat? The ceramic insulator? The electrode? Ground strap? True part of the spark plug's job is to draw heat out of the combustion chamber, but it's not enough to ignite gasoline. How much current can the coil pack send to the spark plug?

Resonance is a very real phenomena and much like the chemistry of fuel combustion, it's not something people(even highly specialized experts) understand very well, so I can understand why you'd think it's non-sense.

[FW17]

Two types of pre-chamber spark plugs were sampled, i.e. a 3kΩ resistor pre-chamber spark plug and a non-resistor spark plug. The resistor pre-chamber spark plug has four injection orifices on the front end surface, while the non-resistor spark plug has three slightly smaller holes on the front end surface and three tiny holes on the side cylindrical surface for a better scavenging effect. A NGK resistor spark plug (5 kΩ) with a v-groove center electrode and a J-type ground electrode was also tested to benchmark the pre-chamber spark plugs.


Figure 1 gives the ignition flame images at 5ms after spark initiation for premixed methane-air mixtures with an excess air ratio of 1.6. It is clear that the ignition flame propagation for the two pre-chamber spark plugs was faster than the NGK spark plug. The non-resistor pre-chamber spark plug produced much faster flame jet due to the increased spark energy. The wrinkled flame front accelerated the combustion speed.
In the other experiment, we compared the ignition processes for the MXTL resistor pre-chamber spark plug, the Tongxin’s iridium fine electrode spark plug (EIX-BKR6 11) and thick electrode spark plug (E-BKR6). The excess air ratio of methane-air mixture was set at stoichiometric. Figure 2 shows the flame



images at 2ms and 4ms after spark initiation. It can be seen that the iridium fine electrode spark plug spark plug can produce a faster flame kernel growth than the thick electrode spark plug. The flame front
of the MXTL pre-chamber spark plug appears later than the other spark plugs, but the post-ignition flame propagation was accelerated due to the turbulent flame jet effect.
The ignition performance of non-resistor pre-chamber spark plug can be further enhanced via capacitor discharge. Figure 3 gives the flame images with enhanced capacitor discharge at excess air
ratio of 1.0, 1.2 and 1.4 respectively. It can be seen that the capacitor discharge significantly accelerated the flame jet velocity; hence it increased the ignition flame propagation especially prominent at lean mixtures.

How are these prechamber spark plugs different to TJI? Is it just the flame length and duration are longer? Or do they offer better control?

[GoranF1]

Hasegawa;

It might hurt more because China has a longer straight," Hasegawa said. "So that [straight] will be very painful I think; that's why we are trying to introduce something more but we can't promise about that."

[restless]

Is it possible that these extreme vibrations are due to the (supposed) unorthodox sequence of cylinder firing?

I don't know nothing about cylinder order and how it affects the engine, just got the bit that supposedly Honda are using a "rare" firing order... how possible that partly this order is responsible for these unexpected vibrations?

[JuanjoTS]

The regulations state that you have to use a standard spark plug, no fancy stuff allowed.

5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.
The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden.
Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.
Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

Does not indicate voltage-operating temperature, I mean a single spark plug. The only fantasy is 400 pages talking about harmonic absurdities.
By the way, nothing for the explanation of the tji ... I point the moon and you look at the finger

Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted.

I mean technically you're right, but which element retains the heat? The ceramic insulator? The electrode? Ground strap? True part of the spark plug's job is to draw heat out of the combustion chamber, but it's not enough to ignite gasoline. How much current can the coil pack send to the spark plug?

Resonance is a very real phenomena and much like the chemistry of fuel combustion, it's not something people(even highly specialized experts) understand very well, so I can understand why you'd think it's non-sense.

The high voltage goes from 1000v to 400kv.
Specifies the voltage in volts of the spark plugs?

You look at the finger, in the insignificant thing to refute you do not like what. The whole explanation is meant to be understood by as many people as possible, I do not look for grandiloquent technical words that are incomprehensible to generate more credibility ... "oh ... I do not understand, it must be true"
You show the regulation of the F1, but I think you can not read it or see the unregulated spaces that it leaves, where the teams look for the advantage.
Even regulating the exact voltage of the spark plugs can regulate the temperature of this with the margin of 5 sparks per cylinder / cycle, you can use 1 or you can use 5, which increases or decreases the temperature of this.

When I speak of "diesel type", I mean that in the pre-combustion chamber they maintain a temperature such that when the mixture is compressed, the increase of the temperature by compression plus the temperature of the combustion pre-chamber causes that inside This mixture is autoignition

[dren]

I don't think these ICEs are dieseling, or at least designed to operate that way. The idea is to ignite extremely lean mixtures, reliably.

[godlameroso]

I'm a mechanic, I get my hands dirty for a living, I only use commonly used words, and I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Pm me we can discuss in Spanish if you want.

I mean most coil packs in modern cars send as many as 120,000 volts from the coil to the spark plug. And the spark on conventional plugs doesn't heat the plug up very much. Like I said it's possible but my dumb mechanic self is scratching my head trying to figure out how you get a spark plug to work like a diesel glow plug. Carbon electrode?