Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[McHonda]

You guys regurgitating old stuff from 2014 and littering the thread. Back to the Honda Power unit.

P.S. Juanjo, you shot your self in the foot with the page you linked to.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... t-ignition

If the shooting in the foot refers to Mark mistakenly using Mahle's two injector picture and explanation with it then he corrects it in a latter piece where he explains they shroud the spark plug only instead to form the mini chamber.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... ine-update

"Within the F1 regulations, only a single injector is permitted and the key to applying the principle within that limitation was shrouding only the spark plug to form the mini-chamber above the main combustion chamber and not – as in the drawing – the injector and spark plug together.

In the F1 application the injector injects the fuel-air charge into the main combustion chamber. Around 3 per cent of that charge from the turbo is forced into the mini-chamber under pressure through the orifices in the ring separating the mini chamber from the main chamber. Getting this transfer right and ensuring the correct mixture is in the small chamber was a major part of the challenge for this project."

[gruntguru]

How much lead time is there from pre chamber to main chamber full combustion? In other words is the full process comparable to standard spark ignition? Or even with the pre chamber lead time is it still faster?

Also do the majority of the species develop in the pre chamber or main chamber?

I don't recall the numbers but from memory there is very little delay from spark to main-chamber ignition. It doesn't matter much because there is very little pressure rise during the pre-chamber combustion phase. The important thing is the very short period required for main-chamber combustion to complete as well as the very lean combustion limit.

[godlameroso]

Back to the TJI topic. Seeing as how only the spark plug is shrouded.

Let's say I have a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine with port injection. Can I get at least some TJI benefit if I, cap the spark plugs with anti-foulers that have little holes drilled in them at a 45 degree angle at the tip? Tuning is not a problem just curious is all.

This is a spark plug spacer/non fouler/anti fouler



People also put them on their secondary O2 sensor with the main hole bored out, it fools the ECU on Hondas to think the downstream O2 sensor is working properly so when people run a test pipe they don't get a check engine light.

[gruntguru]

How are these prechamber spark plugs different to TJI? Is it just the flame length and duration are longer? Or do they offer better control?

Same concept except TJI is also designed for near-stoichiometric mixture in the pre-chamber regardless of main chamber leanness.

[PlatinumZealot]

You guys regurgitating old stuff from 2014 and littering the thread. Back to the Honda Power unit.

P.S. Juanjo, you shot your self in the foot with the page you linked to.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... t-ignition

If the shooting in the foot refers to Mark mistakenly using Mahle's two injector picture and explanation with it then he corrects it in a latter piece where he explains they shroud the spark plug only instead to form the mini chamber.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... ine-update

"Within the F1 regulations, only a single injector is permitted and the key to applying the principle within that limitation was shrouding only the spark plug to form the mini-chamber above the main combustion chamber and not – as in the drawing – the injector and spark plug together.

In the F1 application the injector injects the fuel-air charge into the main combustion chamber. Around 3 per cent of that charge from the turbo is forced into the mini-chamber under pressure through the orifices in the ring separating the mini chamber from the main chamber. Getting this transfer right and ensuring the correct mixture is in the small chamber was a major part of the challenge for this project."

I am not arguing about the second injector. Been there done that. There was a thread on it and I think it was only two or three very creative people, including myself, that held the two injector view. Everybody agreed to disagree and left it there. Util we see photos of the cylinder head or some brave soul leaks the details, there is no need enter that discussion again. Notice, I only mentioned my two injector theory once and stopped there? I don't want to go down that rabbit hole in this thread. There is a thread waaaay back about it.
I took him on for the unsubstantiated and otherwise totally false claims he made. (like he said TJI cannot work for formula 1 when it is a fact that Ferrari use a variant of it! ) He has too many "alternative facts" in his posts.

[PlatinumZealot]

Back to the TJI topic. Seeing as how only the spark plug is shrouded.

Let's say I have a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine with port injection. Can I get at least some TJI benefit if I, cap the spark plugs with anti-foulers that have little holes drilled in them at a 45 degree angle at the tip? Tuning is not a problem just curious is all.

This is a spark plug spacer/non fouler/anti fouler

https://www.willysjeepparts.com/gallery ... FOULER.JPG

People also put them on their secondary O2 sensor with the main hole bored out, it fools the ECU on Hondas to think the downstream O2 sensor is working properly so when people run a test pipe they don't get a check engine light.

Those exist, and they call them passive pre-chamber spark plugs. There is an SAE paper on them. They worked well with LNG, but fouled up quickly with Petrol. There was not a "clean way" to control the mixture inside the plug with petrol, so a lot of deposits. Even regular open spark plugs have a bit of deposits with petrol. It is anyones guess how fouling of the nozzles in managed in F1. I know that the spark plug is free to change. So by extension the nozzle cap may be free to change between sessions?

Wazari probably seen what's inside but he can't tell us.

[gruntguru]

Is it possible that these extreme vibrations are due to the (supposed) unorthodox sequence of cylinder firing?

I don't know nothing about cylinder order and how it affects the engine, just got the bit that supposedly Honda are using a "rare" firing order... how possible that partly this order is responsible for these unexpected vibrations?

Can you indicate the source of your information?

Hasegawa;
It might hurt more because China has a longer straight," Hasegawa said. "So that [straight] will be very painful I think; that's why we are trying to introduce something more but we can't promise about that."
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

The most affordable to change in two weeks would be the crankshaft, with the same measures but a more rigid material.

Utter bullshit! cranks are steel, young's modulus is about 200GPa. That varies by less than 5% across most grades of steel.
also, 2 weeks to change a crank forging is unheard of even in F1.
finally- the crank is very stiff compared to other elements in the driveline (input shaft for example). Increasing stiffness won't do a thing.

Totally agree. Most of the conjecture in this thread regarding the source of the vibrations is way off the mark.
- It is not related to combustion chamber oscillations.
- It is not firing order related
- it is not related to rigidity of engine components ie crankshaft or block
- Most likely plain old torsional vibration in the drivetrain due to someone stuffed up and the natural frequency resulting from engine rotational inertia combined with drivetrain stiffness is in a range that can be excited by torque oscillations from the engine.

[gruntguru]

Tji technology is an otto / diesel cycle, Malhe look for a way to get the thermal efficiency of diesel cars in street cars of gas, from there it was coupled to the F1.

Nope completely wrong. TJI is on the opposite spectrum of diesel. TJI induces very rapid ignition. Even more rapid than spark. Diesel flame speeds is the lowest. And the primary reason why diesel are rpm limited.

The concept is to copy the diesel cycle as much as possible, autoignition by compression. Neither is my theory, is what I read.

TJI enables ultra-lean combustion (which is the only "diesel like" feature).
The cycle is Otto ie pre-mixed combustion. It is closer to the classic Otto cycle (instantaneous, complete combustion at TDC) than most SI engines ie further from the diesel cycle than typical SI engines.
Ignition is by spark.

[wuzak]

500 pages for the Honda thread!

500 pages with a mixture of anticipation, hope, hopes being dashed and depression.

For some perspective - since the Australian Grand Prix (ie less than 2 weeks) more pages have been added to this thread than is in the entire Ferrari Power Unit thread!

If only Honda had the same rate of improvement as this thread's page count, they may have a chance of catching up in the near future.

[flmkane]

500 pages for the Honda thread!

500 pages with a mixture of anticipation, hope, hopes being dashed and depression.

For some perspective - since the Australian Grand Prix (ie less than 2 weeks) more pages have been added to this thread than is in the entire Ferrari Power Unit thread!

If only Honda had the same rate of improvement as this thread's page count, they may have a chance of catching up in the near future.

Be careful, the FIA will read this and Charlie Whiting will dictate that there can only be one added page on the thread, for every five race weekends.

[gruntguru]

Back to the TJI topic. Seeing as how only the spark plug is shrouded.

Let's say I have a turbocharged 4 cylinder engine with port injection. Can I get at least some TJI benefit if I, cap the spark plugs with anti-foulers that have little holes drilled in them at a 45 degree angle at the tip? Tuning is not a problem just curious is all.

Yes. Attard has authored a few papers on near-stoichiometric combustion using a pre-chamber without auxiliary injection.

[McHonda]

You guys regurgitating old stuff from 2014 and littering the thread. Back to the Honda Power unit.

P.S. Juanjo, you shot your self in the foot with the page you linked to.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... t-ignition

If the shooting in the foot refers to Mark mistakenly using Mahle's two injector picture and explanation with it then he corrects it in a latter piece where he explains they shroud the spark plug only instead to form the mini chamber.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... ine-update

"Within the F1 regulations, only a single injector is permitted and the key to applying the principle within that limitation was shrouding only the spark plug to form the mini-chamber above the main combustion chamber and not – as in the drawing – the injector and spark plug together.

In the F1 application the injector injects the fuel-air charge into the main combustion chamber. Around 3 per cent of that charge from the turbo is forced into the mini-chamber under pressure through the orifices in the ring separating the mini chamber from the main chamber. Getting this transfer right and ensuring the correct mixture is in the small chamber was a major part of the challenge for this project."

I am not arguing about the second injector. Been there done that. There was a thread on it and I think it was only two or three very creative people, including myself, that held the two injector view. Everybody agreed to disagree and left it there. Util we see photos of the cylinder head or some brave soul leaks the details, there is no need enter that discussion again. Notice, I only mentioned my two injector theory once and stopped there? I don't want to go down that rabbit hole in this thread. There is a thread waaaay back about it.
I took him on for the unsubstantiated and otherwise totally false claims he made. (like he said TJI cannot work for formula 1 when it is a fact that Ferrari use a variant of it! ) He has too many "alternative facts" in his posts.

Well I think he just meant TJI isn't in F1 in the strictest possible sense in reply to people posting the patents from Mahle and who can't move past the two injectors being used by Mahle when talking bout TJI.

Semantics maybe but it's true enough that it's actually an adapted form of TJI being used in F1 to deal with only being allowed to use one injector.

At least that was my take on what he meant by "TJI can not be set to F1". Otherwise he wouldn't be posting Hughes's article or the video of Ted and Hughes talking about Mercedes in support of it being used in F1.

(Unless he was being sarcastic and I've completely missed the point, then apologies).

[kasio]

I presume you estimated a wheel diameter, calculated wheel torque required to overcome the total resistance and then calculated power from torque using the same engine speed for all cars ? Unfortunately in this case the results are very sensitive to gearbox ratios.. hard to distinguish between a difference in power and a difference in gearing.

No I didn't used torque and wheel radius method that u mentioned. (U mean this : P=TorquexRpm ,Torque=Fxr)
-----------------------------------------------
I used the following equations:
P=FxV
Where
V as car speed
F=drag force+rolling resistance force
Drag force=0.5xRhoxCdxAxV^2
Rolling resistance=(rollig coefficoint)xMxG

What I said still stands. The only way to calculate the power is to know how the car accelerates against a known load. Not the largest load that it can shift.

well amho tells it sleeps. its a power on wheels. doesnt matter what gearing you use! you need as much power as you need to move trough air with this car at that constant speed. you can use whatever gearing you need it will still need same power.

[FW17]

I don't think the F1 prechamber looks like the Mahle TJI, It would be more like this with jet holes to the side of the pre-chamber.

[JuanjoTS]

Nope completely wrong. TJI is on the opposite spectrum of diesel. TJI induces very rapid ignition. Even more rapid than spark. Diesel flame speeds is the lowest. And the primary reason why diesel are rpm limited.

The concept is to copy the diesel cycle as much as possible, autoignition by compression. Neither is my theory, is what I read.

TJI enables ultra-lean combustion (which is the only "diesel like" feature).
The cycle is Otto ie pre-mixed combustion. It is closer to the classic Otto cycle (instantaneous, complete combustion at TDC) than most SI engines ie further from the diesel cycle than typical SI engines.
Ignition is by spark.

Slowing down and better controlling the spread of the combustion flame and delaying the onset of detonation (or knock) it is more than being able to burn a poor mix.

The ignition is by spark .... of the mini combustion chamber, the rest is burned by the first deflagration.

- it is not related to rigidity of engine components ie crankshaft or block
- Most likely plain old torsional vibration in the drivetrain due to someone stuffed up and the natural frequency resulting from engine rotational inertia combined with drivetrain stiffness is in a range that can be excited by torque oscillations from the engine.

Hasegawa said that they experimented with the composition of lighter materials on the day that spoke of the vibrations, the train is manufactured McLaren, by elimination I think the problem is in the engine and not in the train, but it is totally an opinion personal.

It is true that Hasegawa said that the problems increased when connecting the engine to the drivetrain, wider wheels bla bla..me seemed excuses to justify a mistake of its own. For all that I was inclined to think that the error was in the engine.