Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[ENGINE TUNER]

Hey guys. I remember reading here somewhere that generating heat is the main source of recovering electrical energy. If so, which would generate more heat? Based on the rev range will it be max torque or max power? Or are they not related?

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

I don't know why anyone would say generating "heat" would be the main source of recovering electrical energy, if anyone could explain that it would be helpful.

Personally when I tune motors I have long since noticed that exhaust temp delta between turbo inlet and exit is minimal. Also when I test turbo's on a bench(for balance after a rebuild) we use compressed air(same source as for the pneumatic tools) and it actually spins the turbos up faster than the exhaust does, thus I have hypothesized that it is the air pressure that would be the main source for recovering energy with the TERS. The MHU"H" recovers energy from the spinning shaft that connects the turbine and the compressor, which is spun by air acting on the turbine. I could sit there and apply heat to the turbine all day and it isn't going to move 1 spin, it is the "momentum" of the air that the turbine derives its movement from. Also Why would you want your exhaust air temp to be high?

[hurril]

Hey guys. I remember reading here somewhere that generating heat is the main source of recovering electrical energy. If so, which would generate more heat? Based on the rev range will it be max torque or max power? Or are they not related?

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

I don't know why anyone would say generating "heat" would be the main source of recovering electrical energy, if anyone could explain that it would be helpful.

Personally when I tune motors I have long since noticed that exhaust temp delta between turbo inlet and exit is minimal. Also when I test turbo's on a bench(for balance after a rebuild) we use compressed air(same source as for the pneumatic tools) and it actually spins the turbos up faster than the exhaust does, thus I have hypothesized that it is the air pressure that would be the main source for recovering energy with the TERS. The MHU"H" recovers energy from the spinning shaft that connects the turbine and the compressor, which is spun by air acting on the turbine. I could sit there and apply heat to the turbine all day and it isn't going to move 1 spin, it is the "momentum" of the air that the turbine derives its movement from. Also Why would you want your exhaust air temp to be high?

1kg of air has a bigger volume and performs more work the hotter it is.

[Chene_Mostert]

Hey guys. I remember reading here somewhere that generating heat is the main source of recovering electrical energy. If so, which would generate more heat? Based on the rev range will it be max torque or max power? Or are they not related?

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

I don't know why anyone would say generating "heat" would be the main source of recovering electrical energy, if anyone could explain that it would be helpful.

Personally when I tune motors I have long since noticed that exhaust temp delta between turbo inlet and exit is minimal. Also when I test turbo's on a bench(for balance after a rebuild) we use compressed air(same source as for the pneumatic tools) and it actually spins the turbos up faster than the exhaust does, thus I have hypothesized that it is the air pressure that would be the main source for recovering energy with the TERS. The MHU"H" recovers energy from the spinning shaft that connects the turbine and the compressor, which is spun by air acting on the turbine. I could sit there and apply heat to the turbine all day and it isn't going to move 1 spin, it is the "momentum" of the air that the turbine derives its movement from. Also Why would you want your exhaust air temp to be high?

Have to agree with you on this one, its the kinetic energy in the exhaust gasses that spins the turbo, heat is something engineers would like to get rid of in a turbo installation.

[Chene_Mostert]

Hey guys. I remember reading here somewhere that generating heat is the main source of recovering electrical energy. If so, which would generate more heat? Based on the rev range will it be max torque or max power? Or are they not related?

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

I don't know why anyone would say generating "heat" would be the main source of recovering electrical energy, if anyone could explain that it would be helpful.

Personally when I tune motors I have long since noticed that exhaust temp delta between turbo inlet and exit is minimal. Also when I test turbo's on a bench(for balance after a rebuild) we use compressed air(same source as for the pneumatic tools) and it actually spins the turbos up faster than the exhaust does, thus I have hypothesized that it is the air pressure that would be the main source for recovering energy with the TERS. The MHU"H" recovers energy from the spinning shaft that connects the turbine and the compressor, which is spun by air acting on the turbine. I could sit there and apply heat to the turbine all day and it isn't going to move 1 spin, it is the "momentum" of the air that the turbine derives its movement from. Also Why would you want your exhaust air temp to be high?

1kg of air has a bigger volume and performs more work the hotter it is.

Agreed, but hot gas is a byproduct of combustion, its not like the are purposely trying to generate heat just so that 1Kg of air can perform more work. A compound turbo recovers waste energy from combustion gasses, that's all, no magic.

[etusch]

Hey guys. I remember reading here somewhere that generating heat is the main source of recovering electrical energy. If so, which would generate more heat? Based on the rev range will it be max torque or max power? Or are they not related?

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

I don't know why anyone would say generating "heat" would be the main source of recovering electrical energy, if anyone could explain that it would be helpful.

Personally when I tune motors I have long since noticed that exhaust temp delta between turbo inlet and exit is minimal. Also when I test turbo's on a bench(for balance after a rebuild) we use compressed air(same source as for the pneumatic tools) and it actually spins the turbos up faster than the exhaust does, thus I have hypothesized that it is the air pressure that would be the main source for recovering energy with the TERS. The MHU"H" recovers energy from the spinning shaft that connects the turbine and the compressor, which is spun by air acting on the turbine. I could sit there and apply heat to the turbine all day and it isn't going to move 1 spin, it is the "momentum" of the air that the turbine derives its movement from. Also Why would you want your exhaust air temp to be high?

Have to agree with you on this one, its the kinetic energy in the exhaust gasses that spins the turbo, heat is something engineers would like to get rid of in a turbo installation.

May be heat wanted because of expansion of exhaust gas

[hurril]

I don't know why anyone would say generating "heat" would be the main source of recovering electrical energy, if anyone could explain that it would be helpful.

Personally when I tune motors I have long since noticed that exhaust temp delta between turbo inlet and exit is minimal. Also when I test turbo's on a bench(for balance after a rebuild) we use compressed air(same source as for the pneumatic tools) and it actually spins the turbos up faster than the exhaust does, thus I have hypothesized that it is the air pressure that would be the main source for recovering energy with the TERS. The MHU"H" recovers energy from the spinning shaft that connects the turbine and the compressor, which is spun by air acting on the turbine. I could sit there and apply heat to the turbine all day and it isn't going to move 1 spin, it is the "momentum" of the air that the turbine derives its movement from. Also Why would you want your exhaust air temp to be high?

1kg of air has a bigger volume and performs more work the hotter it is.

Agreed, but hot gas is a byproduct of combustion, its not like the are purposely trying to generate heat just so that 1Kg of air can perform more work. A compound turbo recovers waste energy from combustion gasses, that's all, no magic.

Actually they are.

[Chene_Mostert]

1kg of air has a bigger volume and performs more work the hotter it is.

Agreed, but hot gas is a byproduct of combustion, its not like the are purposely trying to generate heat just so that 1Kg of air can perform more work. A compound turbo recovers waste energy from combustion gasses, that's all, no magic.

Actually they are.

No, the primary purpose is to convert potential energy in the fuel into kinetic energy in the internal combustion engine, there after they recover additional waste energy from the exhaust gasses.

[GoranF1]

This video corresponds more to the subject of the chassis.. But the fanaticism of some users, would cause to sink the video. With apologies to the administrator I upload the video here

Comparative hamilton vs alonso - corner by corner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLyHr5b ... be&t=6m17s

Losing 1.27 seconds on the straights combined
Losing 0.29 seconds in braking
Losing 0.67 seconds in high speed corners
Losing 0.46 seconds in remaining corners

For more data, check:
motorsportzone.blogspot.com

You still need power in corners....

[ollandos]

https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2246 ... -next-week

[hurril]

Agreed, but hot gas is a byproduct of combustion, its not like the are purposely trying to generate heat just so that 1Kg of air can perform more work. A compound turbo recovers waste energy from combustion gasses, that's all, no magic.

Actually they are.

No, the primary purpose is to convert potential energy in the fuel into kinetic energy in the internal combustion engine, there after they recover additional waste energy from the exhaust gasses.

They are not mutually exclusive. They are going to want to optimise the recovery process and part of that most certainly entails producing (and/ or retaining) as much heat energy as possible. The net output is what is interesting and also the split between "pushing pistons" and driving the turbine. Different engine modes are going to produce different outcomes here; sometimes you want to charge the battery quicker, that is going to come at the expense of less "pushing pistons" and vice versa.

[Craigy]

So many items seemingly conflicting. They haven't cured the vibration issue but there is a power upgrade for Bahrain test. Are the two mutually exlusive?

Update for test suggests it's not race ready yet.

If it passes their test (whatever that is) in Bahrain, why not give it to one of the two cars/drivers, and then stagger the introduction of new stuff between them?

That way you can have one on a known spec and one on an experimental one, the whole season.
It's not unfair on the drivers - they'd leapfrog each other each time, and to be honest I think with where they are now, both of them would want to risk an upgrade anyway.

[mrluke]

This video corresponds more to the subject of the chassis.. But the fanaticism of some users, would cause to sink the video. With apologies to the administrator I upload the video here

Comparative hamilton vs alonso - corner by corner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLyHr5b ... be&t=6m17s

Losing 1.27 seconds on the straights combined
Losing 0.29 seconds in braking
Losing 0.67 seconds in high speed corners
Losing 0.46 seconds in remaining corners

For more data, check:
motorsportzone.blogspot.com

You still need power in corners....

The more downforce you run, the better your performance in the corners and the slower your topspeed.

How can you assess one against the other?

On the other hand Mclaren could have chosen to run less drag if they wanted to be faster on the straights.

[Craigy]

Losing 1.27 seconds on the straights combined
Losing 0.29 seconds in braking
Losing 0.67 seconds in high speed corners
Losing 0.46 seconds in remaining corners

The loss on the straights is because of not enough power and probably partially not enough grip on corner exits because of not enough downforce.
The loss under braking is because of not enough grip, because of not enough downforce.
The loss in both sets of corners is because of not enough downforce.
The lack of downforce is because there's not enough power to shove aerodynamic concepts with worse drag:downforce coefficients through the air.

Basically, more power solves all of the above, once the chassis/aero guys have had a chance to update their concepts to use the extra power.

[Chicane]

Honda accelerates new engine for Bahrain test

The Japanese are looking for a quick fix after McLaren's worst start in 17 years

Yusuke Hasegawa, Honda's chief in F1, acknowledged his country's reporters in the past China Grand Prix that they will do everything possible for the debut of the new specification of the engine already in the tests of Bahrain that will be realized next Tuesday And Wednesday at the Sakhir circuit, right after the dispute for the third race of the season this Sunday.

It is the first test of the season, which will have a second part on 1 and 2 August in Hungaroring, in addition to the finals at Yas Marina (Abu Dhabi) on 28 and 29 November.

Sakura is working hard to give McLaren a propeller out of the current impasse, which is to be the worst engine of the grid, assumed by Hasegawa himself, who acknowledged Saturday of the grand prize that he is "in the combustion engine" , Where it has the main operating deficit, in the lack of conventional power, and not so much in the electrical part.

To arrive, it would be a quick response from the Japanese driver to the demands of Fernando Alonso to see something soon, tangible and visible on track, not with data and plans, if they want to continue with them more seasons in F1.

The pressure is maximum after the triple abandonment by fault of its two cars, the worse start of McLaren since 2000 when three cars did not finish and the other one was disqualified

As it has transpired, the new improvement is quite large, "although not to win races from Sunday to Sunday", although Honda does not want to set a date for its introduction, because it is also likely to be risky and deep, as they have also warned during the 'meet The team 'on Saturday in Shanghai. If it is reliable, first of all, and more powerful, it could debut in the fourth date of Russia (28-30 April), ie one earlier than expected, which was Spain, as branded.

"We do not want to set a date for this new improvement, but we can do as many as we want because there are no tokens this year. As soon as it is ready, we will do it," insisted the Honda chief, who is no longer worried about the vibrations of the propeller in Its assembly with the chassis.

Source: http://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/gp- ... b45ee.html

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote="ENGINE TUNER"]I don't know why anyone would say generating "heat" would be the main source of recovering electrical energy, if anyone could explain that it would be helpful..........[/quote]

afaik the scientist looking at combustion/exhaust gas at raised temperature and pressure sees both temperature and pressure as 'heat energy'
so is not using the Joe Public concept of heat as being something that is proportional to temperature

and those turbocharging to eg 4 bar boost will presumably see a temperature drop across the turbine
though fwiw I'm in sympathy with Engine Tuner's view
(and now wonder how the aviation ram air turbine works)