Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Craigy]

Joe Saward is reporting that Honda have finally accepted that they need outside help with the PU and is suggesting that the performance of the unit will be much improved post summer break.

[Chene_Mostert]

Hey guys. I remember reading here somewhere that generating heat is the main source of recovering electrical energy. If so, which would generate more heat? Based on the rev range will it be max torque or max power? Or are they not related?

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

I don't know why anyone would say generating "heat" would be the main source of recovering electrical energy, if anyone could explain that it would be helpful.

Personally when I tune motors I have long since noticed that exhaust temp delta between turbo inlet and exit is minimal. Also when I test turbo's on a bench(for balance after a rebuild) we use compressed air(same source as for the pneumatic tools) and it actually spins the turbos up faster than the exhaust does, thus I have hypothesized that it is the air pressure that would be the main source for recovering energy with the TERS. The MHU"H" recovers energy from the spinning shaft that connects the turbine and the compressor, which is spun by air acting on the turbine. I could sit there and apply heat to the turbine all day and it isn't going to move 1 spin, it is the "momentum" of the air that the turbine derives its movement from. Also Why would you want your exhaust air temp to be high?

You are doing something wrong if you can't detect a temperature delta, as that temperature delta is driving the turbine.

The power output of a turbine is as follows:

P = dH*m_dot

where

dH = Cp_in*T_in - Cp_out*T_out

Cp = specific heat capacity of working fluid, at inlet and outlet
T = temperature, at inlet and outlet
m_dot = massflow through the turbine

but also

dH = U_in*C_in - U_out*C_out

where

U = blade speed
C = gas velocity

In the case of a radial turbine this can be simplified to

dH = U_in*C_in

as C_out = 0

A Turbo charger is not a Heat turbine, no combustion takes place inside a Turbo charger.
"In normally aspirated piston engines, intake gases are "pushed" into the engine by atmospheric pressure filling the volumetric void caused by the downward stroke of the piston[14][15] (which creates a low-pressure area), similar to drawing liquid using a syringe. The amount of air actually inspired, compared to the theoretical amount if the engine could maintain atmospheric pressure, is called volumetric efficiency.[16] The objective of a turbocharger is to improve an engine's volumetric efficiency by increasing density of the intake gas (usually air) allowing more power per engine cycle.

The turbocharger's compressor draws in ambient air and compresses it before it enters into the intake manifold at increased pressure.[17] This results in a greater mass of air entering the cylinders on each intake stroke. The power needed to spin the centrifugal compressor is derived from the kinetic energy of the engine's exhaust gases.[18]"

[ispano6]

Joe Saward is reporting that Honda have finally accepted that they need outside help with the PU and is suggesting that the performance of the unit will be much improved post summer break.

Nothing new and merely speculation and an assumption anyone can make.

"The Japanese have long had a tendency to work alone, without too much foreign involvement and it seems that the recent crisis has convinced them that they need to be a little more broad-minded and adopt a more international approach, as Nissan has done, for example, in its partnership with Renault."

No where does it he say that Honda have finally accepted "outside" help. Help from who? McLaren? a former engineer from Mercedes or Renault or Ferrari? No point in reading "in between the lines" as there's nothing there.

[wuzak]

A Turbo charger is not a Heat turbine, no combustion takes place inside a Turbo charger.
"In normally aspirated piston engines, intake gases are "pushed" into the engine by atmospheric pressure filling the volumetric void caused by the downward stroke of the piston[14][15] (which creates a low-pressure area), similar to drawing liquid using a syringe. The amount of air actually inspired, compared to the theoretical amount if the engine could maintain atmospheric pressure, is called volumetric efficiency.[16] The objective of a turbocharger is to improve an engine's volumetric efficiency by increasing density of the intake gas (usually air) allowing more power per engine cycle.

The turbocharger's compressor draws in ambient air and compresses it before it enters into the intake manifold at increased pressure.[17] This results in a greater mass of air entering the cylinders on each intake stroke. The power needed to spin the centrifugal compressor is derived from the kinetic energy of the engine's exhaust gases.[18]"

It may come as a shock to you, Wikipedia may be wrong!

ηT = Actual turbine work/Isentropic turbine work
= wa/ws

wa and ws can be obtained from the energy balance of the turbine. Usually the kinetic and potential energies associated with a process through a turbine is negligible compared with the enthalpy change of the process. In this case, the energy balance of the turbine is reduced to



The isentropic efficiency of turbine can then be written as

ηT = (h2a - h1)/(h2s - h1)

where
h1 = enthalpy at the inlet
h2a = enthalpy of actual process at the exit
h2s = enthalpy of isentropic process at the exit

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/cgi-bin/eboo ... age=theory

It is a bit of a clue that turbines are studied in thermodynamics.

[Craigy]

Joe Saward is reporting that Honda have finally accepted that they need outside help with the PU and is suggesting that the performance of the unit will be much improved post summer break.

Nothing new and merely speculation and an assumption anyone can make.

"The Japanese have long had a tendency to work alone, without too much foreign involvement and it seems that the recent crisis has convinced them that they need to be a little more broad-minded and adopt a more international approach, as Nissan has done, for example, in its partnership with Renault."

No where does it he say that Honda have finally accepted "outside" help. Help from who? McLaren? a former engineer from Mercedes or Renault or Ferrari? No point in reading "in between the lines" as there's nothing there.

You need to read all of the piece he wrote rather than just the bit you quoted.

Joe doesn't report rubbish, being one of the few F1 journos to actually travel with the circus to every race and having various contacts in the pitlane.

[Chene_Mostert]

A Turbo charger is not a Heat turbine, no combustion takes place inside a Turbo charger.
"In normally aspirated piston engines, intake gases are "pushed" into the engine by atmospheric pressure filling the volumetric void caused by the downward stroke of the piston[14][15] (which creates a low-pressure area), similar to drawing liquid using a syringe. The amount of air actually inspired, compared to the theoretical amount if the engine could maintain atmospheric pressure, is called volumetric efficiency.[16] The objective of a turbocharger is to improve an engine's volumetric efficiency by increasing density of the intake gas (usually air) allowing more power per engine cycle.

The turbocharger's compressor draws in ambient air and compresses it before it enters into the intake manifold at increased pressure.[17] This results in a greater mass of air entering the cylinders on each intake stroke. The power needed to spin the centrifugal compressor is derived from the kinetic energy of the engine's exhaust gases.[18]"

It may come as a shock to you, Wikipedia may be wrong!

ηT = Actual turbine work/Isentropic turbine work
= wa/ws

wa and ws can be obtained from the energy balance of the turbine. Usually the kinetic and potential energies associated with a process through a turbine is negligible compared with the enthalpy change of the process. In this case, the energy balance of the turbine is reduced to

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/ebook/thermo ... 060502.gif

The isentropic efficiency of turbine can then be written as

ηT = (h2a - h1)/(h2s - h1)

where
h1 = enthalpy at the inlet
h2a = enthalpy of actual process at the exit
h2s = enthalpy of isentropic process at the exit

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/cgi-bin/eboo ... age=theory

It is a bit of a clue that turbines are studied in thermodynamics.

A Turbo charger is not a gas turbine.
It can be spun with air, water. All you need is a moving media acting on the turbine blades. ( kinetic energy)

[restless]

Joe Saward is reporting that Honda have finally accepted that they need outside help with the PU and is suggesting that the performance of the unit will be much improved post summer break.

Nothing at https://joesaward.wordpress.com/
And even year ago we knew Honda did hired some non-Japan engineers. So where is the news?!

[nzjrs]

Joe Saward is reporting that Honda have finally accepted that they need outside help with the PU and is suggesting that the performance of the unit will be much improved post summer break.

Nothing at https://joesaward.wordpress.com/
And even year ago we knew Honda did hired some non-Japan engineers. So where is the news?!

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/04 ... om-manama/

[ispano6]

Joe Saward is reporting that Honda have finally accepted that they need outside help with the PU and is suggesting that the performance of the unit will be much improved post summer break.

Nothing new and merely speculation and an assumption anyone can make.

"The Japanese have long had a tendency to work alone, without too much foreign involvement and it seems that the recent crisis has convinced them that they need to be a little more broad-minded and adopt a more international approach, as Nissan has done, for example, in its partnership with Renault."

No where does it he say that Honda have finally accepted "outside" help. Help from who? McLaren? a former engineer from Mercedes or Renault or Ferrari? No point in reading "in between the lines" as there's nothing there.

You need to read all of the piece he wrote rather than just the bit you quoted.

Joe doesn't report rubbish, being one of the few F1 journos to actually travel with the circus to every race and having various contacts in the pitlane.

I read the entry in full but didn't draw the same conclusions as you did. When I don't see cited sources, named names, or quotes(translated even), I generally don't find it informative.

Here's an example of a translation of what Hasegawa said:
http://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2017/04 ... -test.html

“We are extremely disappointed. Our engine is ten kilos lighter than 2016’s spec and we lowered the center of gravity by one centimeter, this are very satisfactory points in theory, but we can’t get it to work properly. We’ve chosen an aggressive route during winter and we’re now paying the price of that. During winter we ran numerous tests at the dyno with the mono-cylinder block, gathering promising data, but during assembly of the V6 unit some problems came to surface. We’ve been doing a lot of correlation work since January, crunching all the data that we get from track and dyno, but we need more time . We are working really hard in Sakura, working together with some external personnel, because time is of the essence. We work day and night, we don’t have time on our side. We have double the amount of wok ahed of us compare to our rivals and it’s very hard to do so without taking risks.”

The article also goes into good detail of the issues Honda are facing and the timeline in which they discovered it. It's one of the few articles on Honda's power-unit where speculation is at a minimum. The only thing I question about the article is the entire section on HCCI as the article cites MB and Ferrari benefiting from Mahle's system which should be TJI. Honda is definitely not new to HCCI being one of the earliest to develop it in the early 2000s. Honda also worked on the 4 cylinder 2017 SuperGT NSX engine using the same mono-cylinder concept but found the 4 cylinder version to be more stable and reliable than the smaller displacement V6(trying to find the source on this). The Arta NSX-GT earned pole position for the Rd.1 Okayama race but ironically broke down on race day. In a way, the NSX-GT engine can be considered proof that the concept has performance merit(at least within SuperGT compared to Lexus and Nissan). Now the question is what external personnel have been taken in to accelerate development of the F1 power-unit and for what component/system are they getting help on. Hasegawa mentions combustion engine many times but doesn't go into detail such as combustion pre-chamber or TJI. I presume HCCI and TJI contribute more to efficiency than outright power, which should reduce the need to lift-and-coast. It is hard to conceive that external help will bring about a fundamental change in the engine architecture or concept philosophy and that the help they do get is likely in the area of software, ancillary component reliability/packaging and strengthening the block without adding weight.

[restless]

Rumours about Honda and Ilien were afloat a month ago...

[wuzak]

A Turbo charger is not a Heat turbine, no combustion takes place inside a Turbo charger.
"In normally aspirated piston engines, intake gases are "pushed" into the engine by atmospheric pressure filling the volumetric void caused by the downward stroke of the piston[14][15] (which creates a low-pressure area), similar to drawing liquid using a syringe. The amount of air actually inspired, compared to the theoretical amount if the engine could maintain atmospheric pressure, is called volumetric efficiency.[16] The objective of a turbocharger is to improve an engine's volumetric efficiency by increasing density of the intake gas (usually air) allowing more power per engine cycle.

The turbocharger's compressor draws in ambient air and compresses it before it enters into the intake manifold at increased pressure.[17] This results in a greater mass of air entering the cylinders on each intake stroke. The power needed to spin the centrifugal compressor is derived from the kinetic energy of the engine's exhaust gases.[18]"

It may come as a shock to you, Wikipedia may be wrong!

ηT = Actual turbine work/Isentropic turbine work
= wa/ws

wa and ws can be obtained from the energy balance of the turbine. Usually the kinetic and potential energies associated with a process through a turbine is negligible compared with the enthalpy change of the process. In this case, the energy balance of the turbine is reduced to

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/ebook/thermo ... 060502.gif

The isentropic efficiency of turbine can then be written as

ηT = (h2a - h1)/(h2s - h1)

where
h1 = enthalpy at the inlet
h2a = enthalpy of actual process at the exit
h2s = enthalpy of isentropic process at the exit

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/cgi-bin/eboo ... age=theory

It is a bit of a clue that turbines are studied in thermodynamics.

A Turbo charger is not a gas turbine.
It can be spun with air, water. All you need is a moving media acting on the turbine blades. ( kinetic energy)

No, a turbo is not a gas turbine, but can be made into one with a combustion chamber.



Many microturbines are exactly that.

The turbine part of a turbocharger works in the same way as the turbine in a gas turbine (or a steam turbine) in that the working fluid expands across the turbine as it gives up its heat energy.

[Chene_Mostert]

Kinetic energy.

[dren]

Kinetic energy.

Steam turbines typically have a reheat section. The initial stage takes a lot of the pressure out of the steam, but then the steam is sent back to the boiler to be reheated, and then enters into the reheat section of the turbine. Can you explain why?

Can you explain why the exhaust pipes on these PUs are heavily insulated?

[FW17]

Joe Saward:
The Japanese have long had a tendency to work alone, without too much foreign involvement and it seems that the recent crisis has convinced them that they need to be a little more broad-minded and adopt a more international approach, as Nissan has done, for example, in its partnership with Renault. The public does not mind from where technology comes. The car industry is filled with quiet alliances that save huge sums of money by buying the technology of others and using it under your own brand. I would suggest that we will see a significant leap forward in Honda F1 engine performance after the summer break, allowing the company to end the season on a high note… You can read between the lines on the rest.

???

Honda and Mercedes have a deal?

[dren]

The turbine does use heat it just because the blade design determines how much of the energy comes from impulse (motion of the gas) and how much comes from reaction (heat and expansion) of the gas.

Right, it's why steam turbines have multiple stages, each stage designed for the above.

With the single stage turbines used on these F1 cars, they have to extract as much of both as they can.