Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Kinetic energy.

And tell me, do air molecules have more or less kinetic energy when heated?

[roon]

Any guesses as to what the temperature delta is pre- and post-turbine on these PUs? Generally: is this something that is ever expressed as a percentage? "A gas stream temperature drops approx x% through the turbine stage(s)."

[FW17]

Have fun with this

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turbocalcs.xls

[godlameroso]

Any guesses as to what the temperature delta is pre- and post-turbine on these PUs? Generally: is this something that is ever expressed as a percentage? "A gas stream temperature drops approx x% through the turbine stage(s)."

Usually ~100c difference, but as high as 160c difference. The bigger the difference the better the spool characteristics, partly why huge fart can exhausts improve response, bigger pressure drop post turbine, and what happens when the pressure drops like dubstep bass? Bigger temp reduction.

[PlatinumZealot]

A Turbo charger is not a Heat turbine, no combustion takes place inside a Turbo charger.
"In normally aspirated piston engines, intake gases are "pushed" into the engine by atmospheric pressure filling the volumetric void caused by the downward stroke of the piston[14][15] (which creates a low-pressure area), similar to drawing liquid using a syringe. The amount of air actually inspired, compared to the theoretical amount if the engine could maintain atmospheric pressure, is called volumetric efficiency.[16] The objective of a turbocharger is to improve an engine's volumetric efficiency by increasing density of the intake gas (usually air) allowing more power per engine cycle.

The turbocharger's compressor draws in ambient air and compresses it before it enters into the intake manifold at increased pressure.[17] This results in a greater mass of air entering the cylinders on each intake stroke. The power needed to spin the centrifugal compressor is derived from the kinetic energy of the engine's exhaust gases.[18]"

It may come as a shock to you, Wikipedia may be wrong!

ηT = Actual turbine work/Isentropic turbine work
= wa/ws

wa and ws can be obtained from the energy balance of the turbine. Usually the kinetic and potential energies associated with a process through a turbine is negligible compared with the enthalpy change of the process. In this case, the energy balance of the turbine is reduced to

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/ebook/thermo ... 060502.gif

The isentropic efficiency of turbine can then be written as

ηT = (h2a - h1)/(h2s - h1)

where
h1 = enthalpy at the inlet
h2a = enthalpy of actual process at the exit
h2s = enthalpy of isentropic process at the exit

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/cgi-bin/eboo ... age=theory

It is a bit of a clue that turbines are studied in thermodynamics.

A Turbo charger is not a gas turbine.
It can be spun with air, water. All you need is a moving media acting on the turbine blades. ( kinetic energy)

Stop spreading rubbish please. Just stop. Please read up on the Brayton cycle. Start from there then branch outwards. Also read some other thermodynamics topics.. enthalpy.. entropy. Stagnation pressures and such. Read about the volcity diagrams and rotating machine etc..
A turbo charger can be taken pretty much isolated parts of a gas turbine (turbine and compressor). (If it is not a gas turbine then what else is it?!) The equations are interchangeable.

And no..spining a tubocharger with water doesn't make it gas turbine any more.. thats a water wheel. haha

[Macklaren]

Joe Saward:
The Japanese have long had a tendency to work alone, without too much foreign involvement and it seems that the recent crisis has convinced them that they need to be a little more broad-minded and adopt a more international approach, as Nissan has done, for example, in its partnership with Renault. The public does not mind from where technology comes. The car industry is filled with quiet alliances that save huge sums of money by buying the technology of others and using it under your own brand. I would suggest that we will see a significant leap forward in Honda F1 engine performance after the summer break, allowing the company to end the season on a high note… You can read between the lines on the rest.

???

Honda and Mercedes have a deal?

No...Joe ruled that out a few sentences before your quote. Most likely Mario Illen has pointed out something obvious to Honda that will be fixed

[tcooper27]

No...Joe ruled that out a few sentences before your quote. Most likely Mario Illen has pointed out something obvious to Honda that will be fixed

Great, now when Mario leaves he'll take with him knowledge of anything unique that Honda was doing.

[Tommy Cookers]

regarding the supposed unimpeachable applicability here of the so-called laws of thermodynamics, consider that .....

16000 'Turbocompound' aircraft engines gained at takeoff from recovery turbines 18 hp mechanically added to every 100 hp 'piston' crankshaft power
without any drop in the mean exhaust pressure across the turbines and apparently without any temperature drop across the turbines
(the exhaust plume post-turbine was white hot from atmospheric combustion of fuel carried across in the exhaust by the very rich mixture used)
and free of cost in terms of extra fuel consumption

all this free recovered power came from the exhaust 'pulses' of high velocity/high pressure in the exhaust stream

this was a few years after the UK Govt bought a race-winning Norton motorcycle to investigate its volumetric efficiency that 'science' said was impossible

[Macklaren]

No...Joe ruled that out a few sentences before your quote. Most likely Mario Illen has pointed out something obvious to Honda that will be fixed

Great, now when Mario leaves he'll take with him knowledge of anything unique that Honda was doing.

If Mclaren was smart, they'd bring him back into the fold on a permanent retainer with one eye on developing their own engine by 2024.

[Craigy]

No...Joe ruled that out a few sentences before your quote. Most likely Mario Illen has pointed out something obvious to Honda that will be fixed

Great, now when Mario leaves he'll take with him knowledge of anything unique that Honda was doing.

If Mclaren was smart, they'd bring him back into the fold on a permanent retainer with one eye on developing their own engine by 2024.

In 2024, Illien will be 75 years old.

[Chene_Mostert]

It may come as a shock to you, Wikipedia may be wrong!

ηT = Actual turbine work/Isentropic turbine work
= wa/ws

wa and ws can be obtained from the energy balance of the turbine. Usually the kinetic and potential energies associated with a process through a turbine is negligible compared with the enthalpy change of the process. In this case, the energy balance of the turbine is reduced to

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/ebook/thermo ... 060502.gif

The isentropic efficiency of turbine can then be written as

ηT = (h2a - h1)/(h2s - h1)

where
h1 = enthalpy at the inlet
h2a = enthalpy of actual process at the exit
h2s = enthalpy of isentropic process at the exit

http://www.ecourses.ou.edu/cgi-bin/eboo ... age=theory

It is a bit of a clue that turbines are studied in thermodynamics.

A Turbo charger is not a gas turbine.
It can be spun with air, water. All you need is a moving media acting on the turbine blades. ( kinetic energy)

Stop spreading rubbish please. Just stop. Please read up on the Brayton cycle. Start from there then branch outwards. Also read some other thermodynamics topics.. enthalpy.. entropy. Stagnation pressures and such. Read about the volcity diagrams and rotating machine etc..
A turbo charger can be taken pretty much isolated parts of a gas turbine (turbine and compressor). (If it is not a gas turbine then what else is it?!) The equations are interchangeable.

And no..spining a tubocharger with water doesn't make it gas turbine any more.. thats a water wheel. haha

A Turbocharger is a simple mechanical device working on exactly the same principle as a water wheel. I suggest you get your hands on a unit. Feel it, smell it, lick it and appreciate its simplicity, then you will realise that you are trying way too hard to sound clever on old basic automotive technology.

"The turbocharger consists of a single stage impulse turbine connected to a centrifugal impeller via a shaft.

The turbine is driven by the engine exhaust gas, which enters via the gas inlet casing. The gas expands through a nozzle ring where the pressure energy of the gas is converted to kinetic energy. This high velocity gas is directed onto the turbine blades where it drives the turbine wheel, and thus the compressor at high speeds (10 -15000 rpm). The exhaust gas then passes through the outlet casing to the exhaust uptakes.

On the air side air is drawn in through filters, and enters the compressor wheel axially where it is accelerated to high velocity. The air exits the impeller radially and passes through a diffuser, where some of the kinetic energy gets converted to pressure energy. The air passes to the volute casing where a further energy conversion takes place. The air is cooled before passing to the engine inlet manifold or scavenge air receiver."

simple.

[etusch]

Great, now when Mario leaves he'll take with him knowledge of anything unique that Honda was doing.

If Mclaren was smart, they'd bring him back into the fold on a permanent retainer with one eye on developing their own engine by 2024.

In 2024, Illien will be 75 years old.

Why so many people insist about mclaren engine? I dont know if they know something very important that mclaren dont know

[mwillems]

No...Joe ruled that out a few sentences before your quote. Most likely Mario Illen has pointed out something obvious to Honda that will be fixed

Great, now when Mario leaves he'll take with him knowledge of anything unique that Honda was doing.

If Mclaren was smart, they'd bring him back into the fold on a permanent retainer with one eye on developing their own engine by 2024.

If they had a spare half a billion pounds, too. Engine development costs at this level are absolutely insane.

[roon]

regarding the supposed unimpeachable applicability here of the so-called laws of thermodynamics, consider that .....

16000 'Turbocompound' aircraft engines gained at takeoff from recovery turbines 18 hp mechanically added to every 100 hp 'piston' crankshaft power
without any drop in the mean exhaust pressure across the turbines and apparently without any temperature drop across the turbines
(the exhaust plume post-turbine was white hot from atmospheric combustion of fuel carried across in the exhaust by the very rich mixture used)
and free of cost in terms of extra fuel consumption

all this free recovered power came from the exhaust 'pulses' of high velocity/high pressure in the exhaust stream

this was a few years after the UK Govt bought a race-winning Norton motorcycle to investigate its volumetric efficiency that 'science' said was impossible

No pressure drop, no temperature drop, so... only a change in velocity?

Although you did mention *mean* exhaust pressure, so could it be that the peak and trough of the pressure fluctuations are changing pre- & post-turbine without affecting the average (much)? Such that pre-turbine the manifold sees both lower and higher pressure than what is measure post-turbine.

Apologies to the PhDs for the physics 101 discourse...

[roon]

Great, now when Mario leaves he'll take with him knowledge of anything unique that Honda was doing.

If Mclaren was smart, they'd bring him back into the fold on a permanent retainer with one eye on developing their own engine by 2024.

If they had a spare half a billion pounds, too. Engine development costs at this level are absolutely insane.

Stupid question time: why is this the case? What drives the cost here? I will go ahead and speculate that it might have something to do with the iterative nature of R&D which can be massively upscaled in this context. Then you get to exotic material and cutting-edge design costs & low quantity boutique manufacturing & associated high-cost expertise.

What is to stop some mad geniuses from forming a smaller company to produce one of these PUs at a reduced cost?

Can the few, no matter how bright, ever compete against enterprise? Is scale in this context insurmountable; intractable?