Honda F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa has outlined a number of reasons why Honda has been struggling so badly in the beginning of the 2017 Formula One season. He confirmed that lots of problems were not discovered while running on the dynamo meter.
Wouldn't it be interesting if they used indy car for engine testing...
Wouldn't be a bad idea. The current Indycar is proper HIGH DOWNFORCE open wheer. I was surprised to hear that current Indycars make f1 levels of downforce just at a lower level of efficiency.
Source? I don't know too much about indycar but would be surprised if this is true.
P.s. Mods sorry for polluting the thread with this off topic I'm just really curious as to this claim.
Wouldn't it be interesting if they used indy car for engine testing...
Wouldn't be a bad idea. The current Indycar is proper HIGH DOWNFORCE open wheer. I was surprised to hear that current Indycars make f1 levels of downforce just at a lower level of efficiency.
Source? I don't know too much about indycar but would be surprised if this is true.
P.s. Mods sorry for polluting the thread with this off topic I'm just really curious as to this claim.
Tv qoutes from commentators and Alex Rossi. Unfortunately it was a comparison to the 14-16 f1.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970
“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
interesting stuff so is the temperature difference (pre/post turbine) the main driving force for the turbine shaft ? and how much of a part does the exhaust gas pressure difference play (pre/post turbine)
Ha! It is pressure difference that pushes the blades, however it is the release of heat energy (internal energy) that allows the gas to be expanded more - sustaining the pressure - and increasing the work done. For example an ideal (isentropic) turbine would extract:
195 kW for exhaust condition: 3.5 bar, 800*C massflow 0.6 kg/s (T.O.T. = 477*C)
53 kW for exhaust condition: 3.5 bar, 20*C massflow 0.6 kg/s (T.O.T. = -68*C)
interesting stuff so is the temperature difference (pre/post turbine) the main driving force for the turbine shaft ? and how much of a part does the exhaust gas pressure difference play (pre/post turbine)
Ha! It is pressure difference that pushes the blades, however it is the release of heat energy (internal energy) that allows the gas to be expanded more - sustaining the pressure - and increasing the work done. For example an ideal (isentropic) turbine would extract:
195 kW for exhaust condition: 3.5 bar, 800*C massflow 0.6 kg/s (T.O.T. = 477*C)
53 kW for exhaust condition: 3.5 bar, 20*C massflow 0.6 kg/s (T.O.T. = -68*C)
ahh, thanks again gg
so if the exhaust gasses were cool, there would be a fraction of the power transmitted to the compressor
the Wright energy balance shows unaccessed chemical energy level due to 'incomplete combustion' at 10% of the declared exhaust energy level
so is there (how wouldn't there be ?) further combustion in the exhaust system pre-turbine ?
an aspect of the turbine's activity that is unrecognised by our physical thermodynamics ?
chemical thermodynamics etc presumably explains how methane is being generated from fuel (as well as the carbon monoxide that we expect)
and what happens to both these combustible gases in the hot oxygen-rich mix pre-turbine that we call exhaust
some catalytic effect might be useful here ?
unlike the Wright, F1 uses a high mean exhaust pressure, the high load reduces choked flow % following EVO and better conserves useable energy
they may run at true backpressure -dP to improve PU power (the lean-run 'heat dilution' engines w/o recovery all seem to use .5 bar BP)
With TJI, wouldn't the combustion process take place quicker with less down stream combustion?
Higher mean exhaust pressures allow for more mass flow to the turbine. Way back when, wasn't the consensus that it was roughly a 1:1 crank to recovery ratio?
F1 is asking combustion to be 5x as fast as Wright was, and far leaner the methane might be related to the high aromatic fuel, but F1 has also a lot of scope fuelwise fwiw the NACA backpressure work 'way back when' was with slightly rich mixture
The incomplete combustion in the WTC (about 4% of total fuel) is unavoidable with the combustion chamber technology of the time and the AFR used. No chance of combusting it in the exhaust - too much diluent and too low a temperature.
With ultra-lean mixture and widely distributed ignition (TJI) the F1 engine is undoubtedly achieving a higher combustion efficiency than the WTC. Thanks to higher turbulence, much higher compression, TJI and half the bore size, I bet the current F1 burns its charge in fewer crankshaft degrees than a WTC despite the 5X engine speed.
interesting stuff so is the temperature difference (pre/post turbine) the main driving force for the turbine shaft ? and how much of a part does the exhaust gas pressure difference play (pre/post turbine)
Ha! It is pressure difference that pushes the blades, however it is the release of heat energy (internal energy) that allows the gas to be expanded more - sustaining the pressure - and increasing the work done. For example an ideal (isentropic) turbine would extract:
195 kW for exhaust condition: 3.5 bar, 800*C massflow 0.6 kg/s (T.O.T. = 477*C)
53 kW for exhaust condition: 3.5 bar, 20*C massflow 0.6 kg/s (T.O.T. = -68*C)
ahh, thanks again gg
so if the exhaust gasses were cool, there would be a fraction of the power transmitted to the compressor
[quote=gruntguru]
The incomplete combustion in the WTC (about 4% of total fuel) is unavoidable with the combustion chamber technology of the time and the AFR used. No chance of combusting it in the exhaust - too much diluent and too low a temperature.
With ultra-lean mixture and widely distributed ignition (TJI) the F1 engine is undoubtedly achieving a higher combustion efficiency than the WTC. Thanks to higher turbulence, much higher compression, TJI and half the bore size, I bet the current F1 burns its charge in fewer crankshaft degrees than a WTC despite the 5X engine speed.[/quote]
well, I thought we were told TJI is not at the AFR being used in F1 achieving a higher combustion efficiency (eg than the WTC did as above)
the research papers seem pleased to show at their higher AFRs that the CEs are around 95%
the point of TJI being to allow a much better (ie higher) AFR with tolerable combustion efficiency and speed
not a somewhat better AFR with better combustion efficiency and speed
even TJI has a tradeoff between these factors otherwise there would be no limit to the AFR
higher AFR means greater exhaust mass and pressure but lower exhaust temperature and so apparently lower recovery
btw what interested me was that the 'unburnt hydrocarbon' is methane, not gasoline vapour as we might expect ?
NOTE TO SELF - though its flashpoint is low, methane's autoignition temp (ie in air) is very high - unlike gasoline or diesel
carbon has beaten hydrogen in the race for oxygen so some fuel has in effect become methane
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 14 Apr 2017, 17:06, edited 1 time in total.
Mercedes won't be helping Honda directly they would be crazy to. I read it as ex-Mercedes consultants being hired by Honda. The same guys who went to Ferrari and Renault. Consultants have to eat too after all!
Mercedes engine specialist wolf zimmerman and cedric cornebois move to ferrari (for 2015). ferrari was worst engine in 2014. One way or another, Ferrari learned why the Mercedes' engine is so good. And they fixed their engines.
It is necessary to learn their secrets like ferrari. Otherwise there is no chance for Honda. They reach Renault level at most.
true or false but Bernie said: "Bernie Ecclestone continues to claim Mercedes have given assistance to Ferrari, stating in an interview the world champions gave “a lot of information” to their Italian rivals."
so is the temperature difference (pre/post turbine) the main driving force for the turbine shaft ? and how much of a part does the exhaust gas pressure difference play (pre/post turbine)
