Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[nzjrs]

Is this the worst engine in the history of F1? I can't imagine how guys at McLaren feel about this. My God.

Yes it's not a Honda PU, it's Honda POS.

Mods, can we please delete worthless crap like this. Come on people, act like adults

[PlatinumZealot]

I'm beginning to believe the vibration issues must be coming from the compressor - turbine shaft. With so many MGUH failures coming on the back of Honda working so hard to fix the vibration issues? I remember when Mercedes introduced this split turbo design Scarbs commented that vibration was the main obstacle to overcome.
If I'm right then Mercedes can help to overcome this problem without giving Honda all of the secrets. In fact bearing manufacturers (SKF, INA FAG, Timken, NSK, etc) probably have some insight they would just need Merc to allow divulge the design details.

Nah. If that were the case the turbo wont even live beyond a few minutes.
The turbine is most finely balanced part of the entire car. It spins the fastest and has a considerable radius and shaft length.

[glenntws]

First of all: Chill everybody. We need to docus on the facts and lay our feelings in the background. I also wanted to cry when seeing that also nando retired but we can't do anything about it.

Now, I will do something which I probably should not because it's not my normal way of doing this and making Statements like this, but: IMO, many of you aren't enough teached in the whole PU sector to be "qualified" to actively part in this discussion. And it's not because of you being dumb, but because of the pure fact, that so many People of you simply ignore the previously talked things. The subjects are always the same and while no new idea is added, everybody wants to say the same thing again and again. I also often do wild speculations but they are based on facts which make up for a logical solution. So please, everybody calm down and think what Honda does, if you don't know it, discuss on it elsewhere but not here please.


Now to my ideas. These ideas are purely out of my brain and while they may reffer to other posts, they are purely out of my own experience. I think that because of the similarities between my project and the F1 PU, I could maybe say something to that.

First: The combustion problem is fixable. The base concept should be right because it can be clearly seen that combustion is occuring correctly in many portions of the operation range. While the finetuning may not be finished yet, the concept is working. This is already a clear sign that the combustion failures are at several operation points which can be fixed. To fix this, Honda needs to change the intake or the exhaust systen or even both, because the resonance ranges have to be moved to support in-cylinder exhaust gas flushing. In addition to that, a change of the camshaft (timing and duration) will be needed, but this is a small change which can be made fast as soon as the right values are found.
The reason for the problem is a bad flushing of the pre-chamber. They have to run richer to achieve acceptable jet-flame quality. I know I already said that 3 times before, but nobody seemed to acknowledge that...
This matches up with the intake update which Honda prepared.

Second: The vibration problem is - just like I said before - with 99,9% confidence NOT a conflict which results out of the combustion. The gearbox is just to weak and starts shaking violently under fast change of load. Because of a lighter and less rigid engine block, the vibration isn't cancelled and instead starts so shake through the whole backend of our beloved MCL32... you know what happens because of that: Much bigger driveshaft loads because of strong vibrations, much more wear on the bearings of the gearbox AND the PU, but mainly the main inlet bearing of the gearbox.
The Problems can be solved by Honda by getting out of heaving vibration rev-range where the motions of the engine are again able to cancel out the gearbox wiggle. McLaren aswell as Honda need to increase PU/gearbox stiffness. Nobody cares about a 0,5cm higher COG if your car is therefore able to shift properly...

Third: The problem with the MGU-H is the result of the vibrations and because of the incredibly unreliable MGU-H we have seen in bahrain, it seems that the MCL32 has somewhat of a thermal problem. The inner PU temperature isn't much higher because of Bahrain temps, but the worse cooling is. The MGU-H seems to be built very tight with incredibly low tolerances and when having a stronger shaking TC/MGU-H shaft because of the gearbox problems adding up to higher running temps because of worse cooling capabilities, you get a broken bearing. Which you may ask? I am sure it's the axial one. The radial bearings are able to take in and cancel the vibrations but the axial isn't. When running with tight tollerances, the play is able to throw the axial bearing disk to the supportive sides which kills these bearings if the oil is even warmer. The result is a compressor wheel, which meets with housing and there you have your abrasive metal shrapnels which kill the ICE... Another way the MGU-H is making problems for honda are the seals. They are not holding up the fluids correctly because of heavy vibrations, but I'm certain they already changed the seals to fix this problem.
The solution: Bigger axial-bearing, better cooling, probably get's fixed mostly by fixing the vibration issue.
And: you all need to stop thinking that putting the MGU-H in a single, bigger casted engine block is bad. If they both are not making to many vibrations (which they IMO aren't), then this system certainly improves PU rigidity.

Fourth: I am very sure that MB won't help Honda. And neither will any bearing manufacturer be able to transfer "expertise". Those bearings are all designed by PU staff and then (at least I think so) manufactured in-house. And even in some bearing manufacturer decides which material is used, the usage of the bearing is highly variable in the whole TC/MGU-H Environment. So don't even think about anything crazy like that. Honda is using their own staff and it already probably costed them much of their proud to get help from Illien. It's just the Honda way. Even though that is currently changing, it's not like the PU is not developed by a international Team. Actually, it's very far away from that.


I know some of you didn't like to read that but I had enough of holding up my thoughts because of not wanting to be "respectless". I hope you acknowledge my ideas and why I am thinking like that. And please: Everybody chill! I am still sure that the PU is good, but the overall problems need to be fixed! Believe me. I still believe in McLaren-Honda and I can certainly see a big and bright light not to far away at the end of the tunnel.

[wuzak]

and something more from me ...they try to do work for this turbo-compressor hydrid engines with monocylider?..must be crazy ...any work with out turbo and compressor from engine its work for a food for dogs....must let there dreams out ....for next time on other planet ....that is work for karting engines....if anyone knows very little things of mechanical and enginering....mclaren make 2 big mistake ...one they let them to work alone us they wond on honda way ..and after they dont get out honda for mercedes ...right know pay this mistakes for long time ..with high risk to lose everything ...drivers-staff- sponsors....i dont believe honda can do something better for years ...there is no way to win with honda

The mono- cylinder was the final straw for me. It had disaster writing all over it!!!

The single cylinder test engine is a normal engine development step.

The main use for it is to test the combustion system to make sure it works.

The problem seems that Honda underestimated the interaction between the cylinders on each back, which is surprising since Honda have made a few V6s over the years.

And the other issue was how late they continued with single cylinder development. Public statements by Honda suggest that they were getting good combustion in the development cylinder, but perhaps that result came very late in the process. hence maintaining single cylinder development for so long.

[wuzak]

As for the rumoured Sauber deal, how much money will they be getting from Honda?

I can't see how it could possibly be attractive to Sauber without major funding from Honda. Think similar money to what Honda are spending on McLaren - ~$100m - $150m per year.

And McLaren must be so happy that Sauber are unable or unwilling to fit the current Ferrari PU in the back of their car. As that would make life more difficult for McHonda!

[GoranF1]

someone could tell whether that will be brought Honda to test in Bahrain ????? cause i heard senior engineering of honda has hit the table and shout "I'm tired of being a loser and i wants to win!!!!". It is sound very promising

New sparkplugs...

[etusch]

Yusuke Hasegawa: "We've had yet another disappointing day today. We detected a water-pressure issue with Stoffel's PU just before the start of the race, so we took the difficult decision to not start the race. The issue is still under investigation, but we suspect that it's the same as we had on Friday.
"Despite difficult circumstances, Fernando had a better race, with some impressive overtaking manoeuvres. Unfortunately, with just two laps to go, he felt something wrong with the car and we had to retire it.
"Now we have two days of testing here in Bahrain. Our aim for this will be to improve PU reliability as well as performance, and to test some updated parts. I hope we'll see steps forward during the test."

I am a Alonso fan but I suspect his 3 retirement that all of them after being overtook.
Whatever may be we can get this there will be updates

[mclaren111]

someone could tell whether that will be brought Honda to test in Bahrain ????? cause i heard senior engineering of honda has hit the table and shout "I'm tired of being a loser and i wants to win!!!!". It is sound very promising

New sparkplugs...

[Postmoe]

First of all: Chill everybody. We need to docus on the facts and lay our feelings in the background. I also wanted to cry when seeing that also nando retired but we can't do anything about it.

Now, I will do something which I probably should not because it's not my normal way of doing this and making Statements like this, but: IMO, many of you aren't enough teached in the whole PU sector to be "qualified" to actively part in this discussion. And it's not because of you being dumb, but because of the pure fact, that so many People of you simply ignore the previously talked things. The subjects are always the same and while no new idea is added, everybody wants to say the same thing again and again. I also often do wild speculations but they are based on facts which make up for a logical solution. So please, everybody calm down and think what Honda does, if you don't know it, discuss on it elsewhere but not here please.

This is nonsense. Lack of reliable info is the central issue here, not lack of expertise. A PA at Mclaren will know more than the more knowledgeable here, simply because of the flow of information.

Technical people must participate more actively in this thread because they can elaborate on the subject, but as you said it'll be wild elucubration. With those wild guesses, technical and non-technical people (do this people can even exist?) can reach a deeper level of understanding and even make a little bit of managerial fiction with it. Ideally, everybody being able to point directions within a logical system of facts, a machine that can work only in some directions.

So lets avoid invalidating points of view because of technicality levels or accept that you shouldn't vote, as politicsare a highly technical matter too. Elucubrate.

[Tommy Cookers]

fwiw my initial take is that glenn seems to be saying that, although .......
the engine has at times inconsistent response due to inconsistent combustion (making some shifts mechanically brutal and damaging)
by coincidence McLaren produced a transmission whose deficient characteristics are the true cause of mechanical brutality and damage

[toraabe]

As I have wrote before, they have to operate the engine outside the optimum rev range (too high rpm) because of those oscillations. I am sure that it is the gearbox that is the weak point. Not the engine.

[fellowhoodlums]

If the vibration was known at the end of December and Honda said in Spain testing that strengthening was a posibility to resolve this......how the heck does it take until mid April with still no final solution?

Secondly, it was mentioned here some of the combustion elements and cam need altered and is a reasonably straightforward change once the parameters are found......again, it's April and this problem has not been solved.

Finally, power. Do we really believe that with reliability and vibration issues solved that Honda will match power output of Mercedes end of year 2016 engine? Again, Honda have set expectations and missed them. The design isn't producing the power it needs.

If the design is fundamentally good then it's not like 2015 and 2016 when Honda were limited by tokens and engine layout. Honda are slow at solutions, no other manufacturer has had this pain.

Don't get me wrong, Honda/McLaren are full of clever people and there is much more detail none of us know about but the fact is, progress is painfully slow and it's that frustration which comes out in this forum.

In hindsight, I believe Honda went from final design to manufacture far too late in 2016.

[glenntws]

First of all: Chill everybody. We need to docus on the facts and lay our feelings in the background. I also wanted to cry when seeing that also nando retired but we can't do anything about it.

Now, I will do something which I probably should not because it's not my normal way of doing this and making Statements like this, but: IMO, many of you aren't enough teached in the whole PU sector to be "qualified" to actively part in this discussion. And it's not because of you being dumb, but because of the pure fact, that so many People of you simply ignore the previously talked things. The subjects are always the same and while no new idea is added, everybody wants to say the same thing again and again. I also often do wild speculations but they are based on facts which make up for a logical solution. So please, everybody calm down and think what Honda does, if you don't know it, discuss on it elsewhere but not here please.

This is nonsense. Lack of reliable info is the central issue here, not lack of expertise. A PA at Mclaren will know more than the more knowledgeable here, simply because of the flow of information.

Technical people must participate more actively in this thread because they can elaborate on the subject, but as you said it'll be wild elucubration. With those wild guesses, technical and non-technical people (do this people can even exist?) can reach a deeper level of understanding and even make a little bit of managerial fiction with it. Ideally, everybody being able to point directions within a logical system of facts, a machine that can work only in some directions.

So lets avoid invalidating points of view because of technicality levels or accept that you shouldn't vote, as politicsare a highly technical matter too. Elucubrate.

This Topic wasn't and isn't about only discussing reliable and official Infos. There are many facts you can get just by being interested in the topic and looking at close at how the PU acts when the car is out on the circuit. But without any kind of expertise, we end up with a chunk of ideas which don't properly fit to the facts.

Sadly, I am very sure that non-technical people exist and that's okay. I just think these people should take a bit of time and read one or two books about engines and hybrid systems or at least every post in this topic with more than 4 upvotes, just so we can go on with analyzing the engine even more.

[dren]

Glenn, you state you think they are running richer in their pre-chamber for better jets due to poor exhausting of the chamber? They'd have to be running extremely rich in the pre-chamber to affect the amount of fuel available to the main chamber, thus the hit in power.

Little talk has been said about the ERS, so I assume Honda has a competitive package. They made strides over the last two years. I would equate the various failures all to the vibration issues, but I don't know either way.

What we do know is the ICE is sorely down on power. Perhaps they are running with 'normal' heads utilizing the standard combustion method. Hasegawa said the PU is about as powerful as the end of 2016 unit was. Ferrari and Renault both saw a sizeable power boost when TJI was added. I don't think Honda is running a detuned version.

Without the PU/trans vibration issues that were unknown until testing, Honda would have likely finished races and scored points.

[dren]

If the vibration was known at the end of December and Honda said in Spain testing that strengthening was a posibility to resolve this......how the heck does it take until mid April with still no final solution?

You can bet Honda and Mclaren are working on a fix for the root cause; not just slapping a bunch of added mass to the car to stiffen things.

Secondly, it was mentioned here some of the combustion elements and cam need altered and is a reasonably straightforward change once the parameters are found......again, it's April and this problem has not been solved.

A lot of testing will be required to find those parameters. The rest is reasonably easy. Honda has given a time frame for when the updates are to be expected.

Finally, power. Do we really believe that with reliability and vibration issues solved that Honda will match power output of Mercedes end of year 2016 engine? Again, Honda have set expectations and missed them. The design isn't producing the power it needs.

The lack of power is not related to the vibration issues. Honda knew of the combustion issues prior to testing. Honda didn't know about the vibration issues until testing when the PU and transmission first were run together.

If the design is fundamentally good then it's not like 2015 and 2016 when Honda were limited by tokens and engine layout. Honda are slow at solutions, no other manufacturer has had this pain.

Yes, Renault did. Honda is not slow at solutions; you might just be impatient?

Don't get me wrong, Honda/McLaren are full of clever people and there is much more detail none of us know about but the fact is, progress is painfully slow and it's that frustration which comes out in this forum.

Honda will get there. They are capable. Look at the strides they made with their old PU concept.

In hindsight, I believe Honda went from final design to manufacture far too late in 2016.

Yes, they've stated as much.