Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Singabule]

Hi dren, while waiting glenntws reply, i want to write my thinking. What is the main difference between DI spray pattern and TJI spray pattern? DI is very rich in localized area meanwhile TJI is very homogeneous but lean. How can the lean AFR ignited? The torch is tailored as in SAE paper to reach side of cylinder. If the flame jets is not reaching targeted area, what can they do? The answer is to create rich cloud of fuel at the front of torch and plug, and in principle, as the same as DI. How can backpressure affect their combustion? The waves make torch and fuel injector misplace a few mm, and the mixture is not homogeneous as a results and the richer fuel is, more prone to detonates

[JonoNic]

I know guys like Glenn say that the guys with less technical knowledge can misdirect the conversations (No offence taken ). However, I found this video which seems to not yet have been shared here.

[glenntws]

+1 the words of dren and Singabule!

Yes, I do think the problem is that they have to run richer because of bad pre-chamber "access" under some conditions. I think they have one injector in the main chamber which has one point focused onto a pin on piston which in turn redirects the fuel to the pre-chamber. This allows for a simple solution with a low chance of fouling up the spark plug. However, if the in-cylinder charge motions are not working out right because of gas-flow issues at certain rpm/load ranges, they heavily need to increase the amount of injected fuel to allow for a acceptable af-ratio in the pre-chamber. This issue can occur at many points during the race, at which however I can't say. But that would be the reason for their bad fuel consumption. They simply run richer to get enough fuel into the pre-chamber.

Maybe my previously used way of bad "flushing" wasn't good, because I think now it's easier to understand what I meant.


Oh and: PU power definetly isn't worse than 2016 PU. They just needed to run very detuned at Bahrain (probably because of heat issue with MGU-H). China wasn't that bad at all.

And yes, because of the MGU-H housing being casted together with the engine-block, it's harder to keep the rear-end vibrations away from the shaft. In that relation, they do a very good job in my opinion. If vibrations wouldn't be as strong, the bearing also wouldn't die. I'm sure about that.

[Singabule]

Im very proud that this forum is still discuss technical issue and not drowning in only bashing like other forum. Ok, the fact is honda PU is the worst, lack power, high consumption, vibrate so bad, and so what? We cant improve only by gathering the fact. We need dream to push us forward.

[pgfpro]

First of all: Chill everybody. We need to docus on the facts and lay our feelings in the background. I also wanted to cry when seeing that also nando retired but we can't do anything about it.

Now, I will do something which I probably should not because it's not my normal way of doing this and making Statements like this, but: IMO, many of you aren't enough teached in the whole PU sector to be "qualified" to actively part in this discussion. And it's not because of you being dumb, but because of the pure fact, that so many People of you simply ignore the previously talked things. The subjects are always the same and while no new idea is added, everybody wants to say the same thing again and again. I also often do wild speculations but they are based on facts which make up for a logical solution. So please, everybody calm down and think what Honda does, if you don't know it, discuss on it elsewhere but not here please.

Wow a pretty bold statement.

I'm not sure what qualifies to be tech enough by your standards? Maybe a prerequisite list would help the lower tech members to see if they qualify?

I haven't built a computer designed engine so I will help you out and remove myself from this forum all together.

I did have a idea back in July of 2012 of F1 incorporating a Mahle TJI system but it was just a dumb idea at the time...

see ya peace out F1technical

[taperoo2k]

If the vibration was known at the end of December and Honda said in Spain testing that strengthening was a posibility to resolve this......how the heck does it take until mid April with still no final solution?

These Power Unit's are complex pieces of engineering and I'd not expect we'll see a definitive fix come until later in the season. Could well be a case Honda know more or less what the issues are and what's required to fix them. But it may take a lot longer to achieve those fixes, than people expect.

Secondly, it was mentioned here some of the combustion elements and cam need altered and is a reasonably straightforward change once the parameters are found......again, it's April and this problem has not been solved.

Which may necessitate other parts of the Power Unit require changes as well. If Honda could have solved the issues by now they would have. I've heard Honda are going to be trying out new ideas during the Bahrain test days, no new PU specification. Which some might view negatively, but It might not be a bad thing if they are able to try out different ideas and it helps them find a solution more quickly.

Finally, power. Do we really believe that with reliability and vibration issues solved that Honda will match power output of Mercedes end of year 2016 engine? Again, Honda have set expectations and missed them. The design isn't producing the power it needs.

We won't really know the answer to that question until Honda have fixed the Power Unit problems and they can run it properly and not in a compromised fashion.

If the design is fundamentally good then it's not like 2015 and 2016 when Honda were limited by tokens and engine layout. Honda are slow at solutions, no other manufacturer has had this pain.

Honda still have to go through the complex task of working out what's gone wrong, figuring out solutions, testing those solutions until they find the right one (none of us really know how far they've got with it). Then they have to go from the test bench to the track to see if it does indeed solve the problem. That in itself is half the battle, the other half is then pushing forward developing the Power Unit to become competitive. As for the other manufacturers ? We simply do not know what issues they had during the development process leading upto the power unit's being introduced.

Don't get me wrong, Honda/McLaren are full of clever people and there is much more detail none of us know about but the fact is, progress is painfully slow and it's that frustration which comes out in this forum.

I am incredibly frustrated but I see little point in venting that frustration when you realise in reality nothing we say has the slightest impact on what Honda is doing. It's down to McLaren and Honda to push each other to resolve the problems.

In hindsight, I believe Honda went from final design to manufacture far too late in 2016.

That might well be true. But I hope that Honda will finally get on top of it's problems and can press ahead with getting McLaren back to the top of the pile. A forlorn hope perhaps, but not one I'm going to dwell on.

[diffuser]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... st-895149/
Explaining what happened with Vandoorne prior to the start, Hasegawa said: "We don't know the cause, but the water pressure dropped….it is in the MGU-H area. It looks like the same issue, but a little bit different but we haven't had time to properly analyse."

That doesn't sound like vibrations to me ...could be but I don't think so. I think it has to do with the Xtra heat in Bahrain. Internal water pressure climbing higher. When he says "We don't know the cause, but the water pressure dropped…." He's saying the water it leaking out somewhere just don't know where.

[Redragon]

First of all: Chill everybody. We need to docus on the facts and lay our feelings in the background. I also wanted to cry when seeing that also nando retired but we can't do anything about it.

Now, I will do something which I probably should not because it's not my normal way of doing this and making Statements like this, but: IMO, many of you aren't enough teached in the whole PU sector to be "qualified" to actively part in this discussion. And it's not because of you being dumb, but because of the pure fact, that so many People of you simply ignore the previously talked things. The subjects are always the same and while no new idea is added, everybody wants to say the same thing again and again. I also often do wild speculations but they are based on facts which make up for a logical solution. So please, everybody calm down and think what Honda does, if you don't know it, discuss on it elsewhere but not here please.

Wow a pretty bold statement.

I'm not sure what qualifies to be tech enough by your standards? Maybe a prerequisite list would help the lower tech members to see if they qualify?

I haven't built a computer designed engine so I will help you out and remove myself from this forum all together.

I did have a idea back in July of 2012 of F1 incorporating a Mahle TJI system but it was just a dumb idea at the time...

see ya peace out F1technical

In my case he is right, I don't have f+++ng clue but I don't comment on this section, only news that can help, there are many people here that just bashing about Honda and their engine without substance to defend why. I am sure glenntws is not the most knowledgeable man in the world but I agree with him on keeping the discussion in a constructive speculative way, sharing ideas and knowledge that could be or would be the solution for Honda, as none of us really know what's going on, except if you are working with them as wazari used to, if he was real. So don't get it in the wrong way and please bring more knowledge, challenge glenntws in a constructive way and keep the good work, me meanwhile will try to learn on the way despite sometimes don't having f++++ng clue you are talking about. Keep the forum healthy. Thank you all so far and in advance for your sharings.

[diffuser]

I understand where you're coming from glenntws..

There has been 10+ pages spanning the last couple GP's where everyone has been saying,"oh wow there has been an improvement every race, for what they are dealing with,it's good news". We then have a GP with MGU-H failures, might I add there has been a couple PU & component fails across a couple manufacturers lately, but then everyone completely ignores everything and says nah **** Honda off. S**t engine etc etc. We lose context and the whole picture.

Mid-season,let's see what happens,I do feel like there'll be a nice step up, but I do think it'll be the testing of 2018 where the big, bright light shines through..

I agree as well.

We've been sheltered from the PU weakness in the last couple of races ....In Australia cause it's hard to pass and in China cause of the weather but in Bahrain we were exposed. To further complicate things, the heat has brought new issues.

Here https://youtu.be/EBt9UyaxD9g Zak says it might be mid season(GB GP if you're counting) before they have things sorted out.

[Redragon]

I understand where you're coming from glenntws..

There has been 10+ pages spanning the last couple GP's where everyone has been saying,"oh wow there has been an improvement every race, for what they are dealing with,it's good news". We then have a GP with MGU-H failures, might I add there has been a couple PU & component fails across a couple manufacturers lately, but then everyone completely ignores everything and says nah **** Honda off. S**t engine etc etc. We lose context and the whole picture.

Mid-season,let's see what happens,I do feel like there'll be a nice step up, but I do think it'll be the testing of 2018 where the big, bright light shines through..

I agree as well.

We've been sheltered from the PU weakness in the last couple of races ....In Australia cause it's hard to pass and in China cause of the weather but in Bahrain we were exposed. To further complicate things, the heat has brought new issues.

Here https://youtu.be/EBt9UyaxD9g Zak says it might be mid season(GB GP if you're counting) before they have things sorted out.

All indicates that until summer break things will not be sort out, if they do. Not really related to the engine but inderectly. The fact that Alo is going to Indy 500 and he stateted that he will decide on his decision to renew at end of august, it is because internally has been decided that August is the deadline to resolve the problems, giving themselves a reasonable time frame to resolve. They are looking at 2018 already.

[Vortex37]

and something more from me ...they try to do work for this turbo-compressor hydrid engines with monocylider?..must be crazy ...any work with out turbo and compressor from engine its work for a food for dogs....must let there dreams out ....for next time on other planet ....that is work for karting engines....if anyone knows very little things of mechanical and enginering....mclaren make 2 big mistake ...one they let them to work alone us they wond on honda way ..and after they dont get out honda for mercedes ...right know pay this mistakes for long time ..with high risk to lose everything ...drivers-staff- sponsors....i dont believe honda can do something better for years ...there is no way to win with honda

The mono- cylinder was the final straw for me. It had disaster writing all over it!!!

The single cylinder test engine is a normal engine development step.

The main use for it is to test the combustion system to make sure it works.

The problem seems that Honda underestimated the interaction between the cylinders on each back, which is surprising since Honda have made a few V6s over the years.

And the other issue was how late they continued with single cylinder development. Public statements by Honda suggest that they were getting good combustion in the development cylinder, but perhaps that result came very late in the process. hence maintaining single cylinder development for so long.

What WUZAK said.

In addition, (SCD) single cylinder development is used by anybody who develops engines, after they use design sim software and before casting engine blocks, heads etc. In SCD, schlieren photography and/or laser imaging is used to image all aspects of the combustion process. To say it's crazy is just crazy

[ollandos]

The mono- cylinder was the final straw for me. It had disaster writing all over it!!!

The single cylinder test engine is a normal engine development step.

The main use for it is to test the combustion system to make sure it works.

The problem seems that Honda underestimated the interaction between the cylinders on each back, which is surprising since Honda have made a few V6s over the years.

And the other issue was how late they continued with single cylinder development. Public statements by Honda suggest that they were getting good combustion in the development cylinder, but perhaps that result came very late in the process. hence maintaining single cylinder development for so long.

What WUZAK said.



In addition, (SCD) single cylinder development is used by anybody who develops engines, after they use design sim software and before casting engine blocks, heads etc. In SCD, schlieren photography and/or laser imaging is used to image all aspects of the combustion process. To say it's crazy is just crazy

yes you are right but for non-compresor engines ....

[PlatinumZealot]

I guess it is still half full!

To us engineers, the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.

[Vortex37]

The single cylinder test engine is a normal engine development step.

The main use for it is to test the combustion system to make sure it works.

The problem seems that Honda underestimated the interaction between the cylinders on each back, which is surprising since Honda have made a few V6s over the years.

And the other issue was how late they continued with single cylinder development. Public statements by Honda suggest that they were getting good combustion in the development cylinder, but perhaps that result came very late in the process. hence maintaining single cylinder development for so long.

What WUZAK said.



In addition, (SCD) single cylinder development is used by anybody who develops engines, after they use design sim software and before casting engine blocks, heads etc. In SCD, schlieren photography and/or laser imaging is used to image all aspects of the combustion process. To say it's crazy is just crazy

yes you are right but for non-compresor engines ....

Respectfully you are wrong. These SCDs are HIL. You have a variable exhaust back pressure valve/damping chamber to simulate the turbocharger's effect. Inlet pressure is generated from an electrically driven compressor, similar to something you can see on the Aeristech web site. Think about it. You need more than atmospheric pressure to be able to see what is really happening. Sensors and feedback everywhere.

[PlatinumZealot]

Technical people must participate more actively in this thread because they can elaborate on the subject, but as you said it'll be wild elucubration. With those wild guesses, technical and non-technical people (do this people can even exist?) can reach a deeper level of understanding and even make a little bit of managerial fiction with it. Ideally, everybody being able to point directions within a logical system of facts, a machine that can work only in some directions.

So lets avoid invalidating points of view because of technicality levels or accept that you shouldn't vote, as politicsare a highly technical matter too. Elucubrate.

Sadly, I am very sure that non-technical people exist and that's okay. I just think these people should take a bit of time and read one or two books about engines and hybrid systems or at least every post in this topic with more than 4 upvotes, just so we can go on with analyzing the engine even more.

I agree with Glenn here. A lot of "newbies" jumping in on the topic like a hot blooded chihuahah and bringing back wild guess that have been thrashed out since 2014. This muddles the thread a bit. A better thing for them to do is either read the ealier parts of the thread - though I admit the thread is long and junked up with same wild speculation - OR just sit back and follow the wiser heads for a few pages to see what ground has already been covered. Too many Stroll-like handling of key concepts in here, and so the cloudiness and junk just builds and builds. Speaking of junk... We should aim to keep dsicussions squarely on the engine development and away from race results and McLaren team matters. If there is an event that happened in a race that offers new information on the engine I think that is fair game but if it is Alonso phoning it in on the penultimate lap or more Honda bashing from "outsiders" I think that just clutters the thread.
There are also general topics that can be discussed outside like how TJI works and how turbochargers work etc.. These general technologies do not exclusively apply to Honda and should only be discussed here if there is some special application or development of the above that Honda may have done.