2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

[Santozini]

http://sf70h.ferrari.com/en/

https://i.gyazo.com/9dbba9d89c596c49f41 ... 27680e.png

That's what they say in the oficial site... the same as Mercedes.
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/merced ... -eq-power/

You know, stupidity has some limits man. Based on information available in public domain I am saying, A is pregnant and people here are like, "Is there is OFFICIAL news that "B IS NOT PREGNANT?"

So far, Mercedes, Force India and Red Bull (because of old MGU which is heavier) have officially spoken about their overweight issues and hence that information is used for all official discussions/arguments. It only requires a bit of common sense to understand that, if other teams haven't made statements regarding the weight, that means they are within the weight limits as mandated by the regulations.

It only takes a bit of common sense to understand that you were given the exact same example which you used as your argument, the team's official website.

It only takes a bit of common sense to know not to assume anything in F1

It also only takes a bit of common sense to know you need to take anything F1 teams say with a pinch of salt.

Lastly, it only takes a bit of common sense not to insult other members over a different opinion.

We don't know for sure who is overweight or by how much. For all we know, these are distractions. All we know so far is that this year the Ferrari is actually in a position to challenge Mercedes, and it seems like it is starting to worry some.

As a F1 fan, this is one of the best things that happen to the sport since the rules changed.

[munudeges]

The number one policy will be in full effect very soon. I dont know. But i think Vettel will be unstoppable if Ferrari keep developing. Kimi has been downtight slow but he is doing just enough to keep the Red team in front. A 1-4 always trumps a 2 - 3!

It already is in full effect. Vettel last season realises he can't win a race, let alone the championship, lets out a whole load of bizarre radio messages and Raikkonen miraculously improves in the second half. This season Vettel can win races and miraculously Raikkonen is slower.

I think anyone who is eyeing up that seat at Ferrari, especially Carlos Sainz et al, need to be very careful it is not a poisoned chalice.

[PlatinumZealot]

I mean, I think Vettel is genuinely faster than Rakkonen when the stars are out of intergalactic alignment, which is like 99% of the time this year and so Raikkonen does not make a good case for himself there. I don't think he is getting lesser setup time or inferior parts like how teams did it in the old days but where his number 2 status shows itself is in the race strategy. Even if he drive balls to the wall behind vettel's gearbox he must stay out and "secure the perimeter" while Vettel enjoys a tasty undercut.

[iulian_florea]

I think it's last season too, he's been in F1 since 2001 and peaked early. 2003 and 2005 he was absolutely top notch. Nowadays he is still a good driver to have in the team. He brings in steady points and stays out of trouble, for the most part.
Kimi is 37 years old, of course Ferrari knows that he will lose some speed, they all do. Remember Coulthard when he was in RedBull, it was awful, Schumacher was also surprisingly bad in his comeback.
I can't recall any 37 year old (or older) driver from the last 20 years that has been on the same level as Kimi, so he is actually doing a very good job for a guy of his age.
But it's time to step down and make room for someone else, I'd love to see Grosjean in the Ferrari. The downside of having him is that he is also very touchy about how the car behaves, much like Kimi. On a good day GRO is among the fastest IMHO.

Michael was 37 when he retired for the first time in 2006

[f1316]

Was gonna put this in the PU thread but maybe not:

Just realised that Ferrari customer teams never run the logo; Mercedes and Honda customers do and Red Bull used to have a big Renault written on the side before the 'unpleasantness'.

Anyway, just thought it was interesting; seems the exception.

[Godius]

Was gonna put this in the PU thread but maybe not:

Just realised that Ferrari customer teams never run the logo; Mercedes and Honda customers do and Red Bull used to have a big Renault written on the side before the 'unpleasantness'.

Anyway, just thought it was interesting; seems the exception.

Only Williams has the powered by Mercedes branding and that was because of a deal that Toto Wolff made as a Williams shareholder. Force India has never ran Mercedes branding I believe.

[f1316]

Was gonna put this in the PU thread but maybe not:

Just realised that Ferrari customer teams never run the logo; Mercedes and Honda customers do and Red Bull used to have a big Renault written on the side before the 'unpleasantness'.

Anyway, just thought it was interesting; seems the exception.

Only Williams has the powered by Mercedes branding and that was because of a deal that Toto Wolff made as a Williams shareholder. Force India has never ran Mercedes branding I believe.

I guess you're right: Williams = special agreement with Mercedes; McLaren = Honda works team (basically); Red Bull were the Renault works team prior to 2016.

It occurred to me that I didn't think I'd seen the Ferrari logo on another car - but that's just because they never had a works team (other than themselves). I guess I was wondering why Haas - who seem to get more from Ferrari than Williams do Mercedes - didn't run the logo, but it's kind of immaterial.

So just ignore me basically.

[Phil]

[...]

The weight obviously is an essential part of this discussion. We know for a fact that Mercedes among other teams have explicitly expressed that their car is overweight, again, by a very specific amount (5kg). Ferrari have not. The logical conclusion therefore is, that one car is overweight, the other is not. It's the best conclusion we can make at this point.

If you have anything more substantial than "you need to take anything F1 teams say with a pinch of salt" to add that makes you believe that 1.) the Ferrari is also overweight or 2.) Mercedes might by lying about their car being overweight, then please, add it to the discussion. If you don't and you only have some arguments about common sense, this might not be the forum to post it, since it adds nothing to a rather constructive discussion about the technical aspects of these cars.

Right now, the 5kg difference between the Ferrari and the Mercedes is the only thing we can legitimately assume regarding weight. Why? It makes sense - just look at both cars. One is substantially longer (long wheelbase), the other is not. Then there is also the complexity of the body work. That one might be a little heavier might just be logical. So lets work with that, under the assumption that the figure is indeed correct until we know better or we can find something more conclusive than that.

This is not to slam Ferrari's achievement in any way btw - they have clearly done an amazing job. The big question that interests us technical minded folk is if they can keep their car as closely matched over the duration of this season or if Mercedes indeed will pull ahead eventually.

This raises the question: Is Mercedes underperforming? Or has Ferrari simply caught up?

Assuming the 5kg overweight is correct, we can assume that the Mercedes has some potential there to improve substantially (although it might be an IF, considering they have a more complex car, long wheelbase and all). There are also indications that the Mercedes PU is still at an advantage as well. We can see from the aerodynamic concept both teams have that they have gone in different directions. The Ferrari seems to be rather simple and it shows up at tracks (3 so far) and is relatively quick and consistent off the bat. The Mercedes however seems to improve substantially over the course of a weekend. This to me suggests that the Mercedes is rather complex and sensitive on set-up and the team still needs time (and data) to figure out its optimal configuration more efficiently. Over the course of a season, they will improve on this, as they get to understand their car better. This might also solve their tire issues they currently have.

One of the trump cards Ferrari seems to have is the bending rear wing that, we assume, significantly reduces drag above a certain speed. Then there is also the fancy floor that bends. The question remains if these are the factors that are causing them to be as quick as they are, even at a PU deficit - or why some people believe the PU is right there on par.

I don't have to be a fan of neither team to think that the Mercedes still has quite a bit of potential there to improve. It's already the reference point in qualifying, though some of that could be due to a specific engine mode that Mercedes unlocks in QF. Ferrari fans might not like to hear this, but the Ferrari has worked so flawless so far at this point, it's hard to see weak points where they could improve on (other than QF engine mode and Kimi's overall performance). Mercedes has showed some weakness so far explicitly during races; mainly team strategy, tire wear, the overweight aspect and the complexity and effort it takes to set up the car. Then there is also the long wheelbase of the car. Overall this hasn't hampered them (or maybe it's just the cost of added weight to a degree), but it probably will hurt them more once we show up at Monaco or Singapore, maybe even Baku. But if they could solve their issues on the other tracks, this might just be a worthwhile tradeoff for them.

DISCLAIMER: This is purely speaking as a technical minded individual analyzing the strengths and challenges both teams face and speculating what we can expect looking forward. It's probably not what a F1 fan perhaps wants to hear or see.

[waynes]

Was gonna put this in the PU thread but maybe not:

Just realised that Ferrari customer teams never run the logo; Mercedes and Honda customers do and Red Bull used to have a big Renault written on the side before the 'unpleasantness'.

Anyway, just thought it was interesting; seems the exception.

I asked Graeme Lowdon this question at The F1 Show a couple of years ago, he simply said it was Ferrari who asked them not to put the badge on the engine cover. It really was as simple as that. They were happy to supply engines (for a fee) but dont put the prancing horse on your lesser vehicle

[marvin78]

We know for a fact that Mercedes among other teams have explicitly expressed that their car is overweight, again, by a very specific amount (5kg). Ferrari have not. The logical conclusion therefore is, that one car is overweight, the other is not. It's the best conclusion we can make at this point.

Really? Wow. If everyone would draw conclusions like you do, this world would be an even more illogical place than it is. But it explains a lot.

[ME4ME]

I think the only logical conclusion that we can draw is that no team has an overweight car going into the 4th Grand Prix.

Several cars were overweight at Melbourne. Teams like Force India have successfully reduced weight, and thus a more capable team like Mercedes should be able to do the same.

[f1316]

Was gonna put this in the PU thread but maybe not:

Just realised that Ferrari customer teams never run the logo; Mercedes and Honda customers do and Red Bull used to have a big Renault written on the side before the 'unpleasantness'.

Anyway, just thought it was interesting; seems the exception.

I asked Graeme Lowdon this question at The F1 Show a couple of years ago, he simply said it was Ferrari who asked them not to put the badge on the engine cover. It really was as simple as that. They were happy to supply engines (for a fee) but dont put the prancing horse on your lesser vehicle

Ah, interesting! Thanks!

[Rainmaker]

I think what they mean by overweight is the weight of the car with Ballast. I doubt they actually race overweight. F1 cars use ballast to change the weight distribution to suit different circuits. Mercedes might just be limiting the flexibility with weight distribution because of lower ballast weight available to play around with. I doubt they can change too much of this because their car is longer and therefore inherently will be heavier (atleast the chassis)

[Phil]

Not according to the article that quoted the above mentioned figure.

Here it is: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 49921.html

Trotz des erhöhten Mindestgewichts hatten die Teams Mühe, ihre Autos auf 728 Kilogramm zu trimmen. Mercedes liegt zum Saisonstart sogar um 5 Kilogramm darüber. Das kostet zwei Zehntel in der Rundenzeit. Ein Grund, warum man auf das Wunderfahrwerk verzichtet. Da kämen noch einmal 1,5 Kilogramm dazu. Bei Mercedes spielen viele Faktoren mit hinein. Motor und Getriebe sind schwerer als letztes Jahr. Das Auto ist länger. Aerodynamische Anbauteile mussten verstärkt werden.

Translated: Some teams are having trouble trimming down their weight to hit the minimum weight of 728kg mandated this year. Mercedes at the season start is even 5kg over it. That costs 2 tenths of lap time. A reason why the team have also opted to not use their trick suspension: if they did, it would add another 1.5kg. There are many factors that play into this with the Mercedes car: Engine and gearbox/drivetrain are heavier than last year. The car is longer. Aerodynamic parts needed to be strengthened.

Red Bull konnte ursprünglich 5 Kilogramm Ballast unterbringen. Damit ist jetzt Schluss. Renault löste das MGU-K Problem in einer Notoperation dadurch, indem man die Elektromaschine aus dem Vorjahr an den V6-Turbo schraubte. Die wiegt 5 Kilogramm mehr als das gebrechliche 2017er Modell. Auch Toro Rosso und das Werksteam sind in Melbourne um diesen Betrag schwerer unterwegs als bei den Testfahrten.

Translated: RedBull was able to use 5kg of ballast. This isn't the case anymore, as Renault had problems with their MGU-K so have fixed it by reverting back the 2016 spec that is 5kg heavier than the fragile newer 2017 spec. Torro Rosso and the factory Renault team were heavier by this amount at the Australian GP than at the pre-season tests.

Force India kann jetzt auch wieder mit Ballast spielen. Das Auto war bei den Testfahrten 10 Kilogramm zu schwer, und hat jetzt 3,5 Kilogramm Untergewicht. Auch die Fahrer mussten sich an der strengen Abmagerungskur beteiligen. Sergio Perez klagt, dass er vor lauter Diät von Hunger geplagt wird.

Translated: Force India can use Ballast again. At the pre-season tests, the car was 10kg overweiight, now it's 3.5 kg under. Even the drivers needed to lose some weight. Sergio Perez apparently voiced frustration over being hungry all the time due to the diet he has been on.

Ferrari und sein Satelliten-Team HaasF1 liegen leicht unter der Mindestgrenze. Williams auch. Der FW40 ist allerdings auch das kürzeste Auto im Feld. Länge bedeutet mehr Gewicht. Zehn Zentimeter extra kosten zwischen 2 und 3 Kilogramm, je nachdem, wo man anbaut. Mercedes streckte den Radstand um 26 Zentimeter. Bei Force India waren es sogar 27,9 Zentimeter. Die Mercedes-Teams stellen mittlerweile fest, dass sie mit der Kühlung zu konservativ gebaut haben. Auch da liegen je nach Team noch 2 bis 5 Kilogramm Abspeck-Potenzial.

Translated: Ferrari and Haas F1 are slightly under the minimum weight. Williams too. The FW40 though is the shortest car on the grid. [Car] Length means more weight. 10cm cost between 2 and 3kg, depending on where and how you place it. Mercedes lengthened their car by 26cm. Force India even more, by 27.9cm (I assume relative to last year). The Mercedes teams, in the mean time, have concluded that they have been too conservative [aggressive?] with the cooling. They have 2-5 kg of potential to reduce weight there.

Es ist kein Wunder, dass die neuen Autos so schwer geraten sind, und dass die Teams so große Mühe haben, überhaupt noch Ballast im Auto zu platzieren. Die Autos und Flügel sind 20 Zentimeter breiter. Mehr Volumen bedeutet mehr Gewicht. Die zusätzliche Länge bringt noch ein zweites Problem mit sich. Um die gleiche Verwindungssteifigkeit zu erzielen, müssen gewisse Komponenten verstärkt werden.

Die höheren Kräfte in den Kurven verlangen stabilere Aufhängungen, Radträger, Lenkungskomponenten und Befestigungen für die Flügel. Längere Laufzeiten der Motoren erhöhen das Gewicht der Antriebseinheiten. Außer bei denen, die wie Renault in der Vergangenheit deutlich zu viel Gewicht mit sich herumgeschleppt haben. Dickere Bremsscheiben schlagen genauso zu Buche wie die breiteren Räder. Ein Vorderrad samt Reifen wiegt jetzt 0,8 Kilogramm mehr, ein Hinterrad 1,8 Kilogramm. „Das alles summiert sich. Es ist nicht ein großer Beitrag, sondern viele kleine“, erklärt Force India-Technikchef Andy Green.“

Translated: It is no surprise that the new cars are heavier and that the teams are facing trouble meeting them in order to place ballast. The cars and wings are 20cm wider. More volume equals more weight. The extended length [of some cars] exaggerate this. In order to achieve the same [chassis] stiffness, some components need to be strengthened.

The higher g-forces in the corners require stronger suspension and parts etc. The fact that the engine need to run longer (more races) mean that they need to be strengthened which adds weight - except Renault who have used too heavy in the past and had a lot of potential to improve on in this area. Thicker brakes and wider tires also add weight. A front tire is now 0.8kg heavier, a single rear tire 1.8kg. This all adds up. It's not one particular area but the sum of many parts, explains Force-India-Technical-Chief Andy Green.


Lots of good info there. Assuming Auto-Motor-und-Sport didn't pull all these numbers out of thin air, I think we can assume they were reasonably accurate at some point (article is dated 24.3.2017). I find it far more logical to take these numbers as some form of reference point than the sheer speculation and no numbers at all.

[santos]

"Mercedes car: Engine and gearbox/drivetrain are heavier than last year. The car is longer"; "10cm cost between 2 and 3kg, depending on where and how you place it. Mercedes lengthened their car by 26cm"; "Mercedes at the season start is even 5kg over it"
Thoose numbers aren't very accurate. Or something isn't right. 26cm made Mercedes gain 5kg. But if the engine and gearbox are heavier, how can it be only 5kg?