Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Tommy Cookers]

please don't anybody mistake me for a man who thinks it's easy - but external effects like 'gyroscopic' reaction (or bumps in the road) ......
are probably not the killers .....
to a 120000 rpm 200 kW machine given pulses of mechanical energy at some kHz from conversion of electrical energy pulses or vice-versa
whose rotation is driven by turbine blades vibrating at some kHz in gasflow whose 'pulse' vibrations at 5-600 HZ we farm for ICE and PU power

and whirling force effect of even perfectly smooth 120000 rpm rotation are far greater than externals from vehicle body movements eg gyro effects
high frequency external vibration may add to the underlying 'whirling' contribution to transverse vibration of the shaft

[dren]

EM bearings seem overly complex for minimal gains, if at all.

[shady]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5MMGZSi60Q

So conventional bearings have speed exclusion windows due to resonance, that have to be driven through quickly. Hmm, sounds like what we have already with the current PU setup. If you want to hold on to that idea of the em bearing, it could have been that Honda went conventional in the hope of integrating something like this later on, and ran into untuned harmonics.. I dont know. If power is lost, even for a moment that the MGUH would be the first thing to fail, but they would see that in the data.

Wazari did say they tried to stuff as many gidgets into the PU up the last minute, though this seems far fetched to me.

[JuanjoTS]

If Honda has problems with EM not far from Woking has a company that could hire ...






http://www.turbogenset.com
http://turbopowersystems.com

[dren]

I'd say windage losses are of more concern. Do we know or is it safe to assume the H is under a vacuum?

Interesting NASA paper on windage losses in alternators: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 027690.pdf

I apologize if this has been posted before.

[godlameroso]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5MMGZSi60Q

So conventional bearings have speed exclusion windows due to resonance, that have to be driven through quickly. Hmm, sounds like what we have already with the current PU setup. If you want to hold on to that idea of the em bearing, it could have been that Honda went conventional in the hope of integrating something like this later on, and ran into untuned harmonics.. I dont know. If power is lost, even for a moment that the MGUH would be the first thing to fail, but they would see that in the data.

Wazari did say they tried to stuff as many gidgets into the PU up the last minute, though this seems far fetched to me.

Interesting, in the video it says that there are speed exclusion windows around rotor resonances that must be driven through quickly or risk damaging. So perhaps they started with conventional bearings, and they've been working on MGU-H bearing design ever since? Since they consume electricity wouldn't it be counter productive to use EM bearings though?

[FW17]

One of the hardest parts of packaging the turbo's was to do it without putting any magnetic materials in there as they affect the MGU-H so I suspect its a non-starter.
None of the turbo's I worked on used magnetic bearings it was never even considered, it was a battle between Roller Bearings and Journal bearings. Both have there advantages but ultra-high quality roller bearings always ended up being used.

Affect the MGUH? That maybe so but the elephant in the room is heat and reliability.
Can the magnets work efficiently at elevated temperatures?
When you electric power goes what happens? Do your bearings crash land and blow the turbo to smithereens? Or is there a battery that keeps it powered long enough to slow down to a gentle landing. This has to be thought out first.

This is also the problem with journal bearings (lack of oil not electricity), especially when part of the rules stated that the cars had to run on electrical power only in the pitlane. Either the turbo would have had to stop dead or oil pressure would have had to be maintained. That rule was quietly dropped though.

Anything magnetic in the MGUH's vicinity is a no-no, its not too difficult to do except when it come to getting decent fasteners.

[tok-tokkie]

Alongside that YouTube video of the Siemens bearing was a link to this very simple Swedish magnetic bearing. No idea what loads it can take.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R4QQmCY4JU

[MrPotatoHead]

OK everyone I've been reading this forum for a long time but the fantasy in this thread made me finally register and post.

Turbos typically use 2 forms of bearings - Journal bearings or Ceramic Ball Bearings.
Any turbo worth its weight these days uses Ceramic bearings as they offer lower friction and thus less rotational drag on the turbo.
If you think any of the F1 turbos use anything but Ceramic bearings then you need to step away from the pipe.
A "Magnetic Bearing" would not be able to handle the axial thrust loads that a compressor wheel generates. If you can't visualize is a compressor wheel is like a screw trying to pull its way through the air - thus the "Thrust Bearing" that is needed on a turbo.

I'd also be willing to bet that the MGU-H problems Honda suffered the weekend were a seal failure - probably from a machining defect / tolerance problem. EB hinted at this with his remarks yesterday about it maybe being a "batch problem"

I'd also like to add that while it is frustrating to see where Honda are at I think most of you seriously underestimate the skill needed to even do as badly as they are right now. They will get there. They just need time.
And remember - just because you have a theory about how or why they are doing something doesn't mean you have a clue about any of it.

[PlatinumZealot]

@ the EM bearing supporters. Only a madman would use EM bearings for this application. I can't even believe this Idea is being entertained.

[godlameroso]

OK everyone I've been reading this forum for a long time but the fantasy in this thread made me finally register and post.

Turbos typically use 2 forms of bearings - Journal bearings or Ceramic Ball Bearings.
Any turbo worth its weight these days uses Ceramic bearings as they offer lower friction and thus less rotational drag on the turbo.
If you think any of the F1 turbos use anything but Ceramic bearings then you need to step away from the pipe.
A "Magnetic Bearing" would not be able to handle the axial thrust loads that a compressor wheel generates. If you can't visualize is a compressor wheel is like a screw trying to pull its way through the air - thus the "Thrust Bearing" that is needed on a turbo.

I'd also be willing to bet that the MGU-H problems Honda suffered the weekend were a seal failure - probably from a machining defect / tolerance problem. EB hinted at this with his remarks yesterday about it maybe being a "batch problem"

I'd also like to add that while it is frustrating to see where Honda are at I think most of you seriously underestimate the skill needed to even do as badly as they are right now. They will get there. They just need time.
And remember - just because you have a theory about how or why they are doing something doesn't mean you have a clue about any of it.

Mercedes probably uses journal bearings which may be why you see little puffs of oil smoke come out the tail pipe as they have trouble with seals at low speeds. It's probably easier to use journal bearings on a long shaft that connects turbine, MGU-H, and compressor. Ceramic bearings may not work too well with such a long shaft, unless many bearings are used, and the problem with ceramic bearings is that they can be brittle, not such a big deal with a much smaller shaft on a conventional turbo, however a longer shaft is subjected to more resonance.

[MrPotatoHead]

btw - I just want to say that I do NOT work for Honda or any of the F1 Engine manufacturers.
But I do know a thing or two about Engines and turbos.
Sorry if my previous post seemed negative towards people - Discussion and theory are always great, I just want to ground some of the ideas being thrown around.

[MrPotatoHead]

OK everyone I've been reading this forum for a long time but the fantasy in this thread made me finally register and post.

Turbos typically use 2 forms of bearings - Journal bearings or Ceramic Ball Bearings.
Any turbo worth its weight these days uses Ceramic bearings as they offer lower friction and thus less rotational drag on the turbo.
If you think any of the F1 turbos use anything but Ceramic bearings then you need to step away from the pipe.
A "Magnetic Bearing" would not be able to handle the axial thrust loads that a compressor wheel generates. If you can't visualize is a compressor wheel is like a screw trying to pull its way through the air - thus the "Thrust Bearing" that is needed on a turbo.

I'd also be willing to bet that the MGU-H problems Honda suffered the weekend were a seal failure - probably from a machining defect / tolerance problem. EB hinted at this with his remarks yesterday about it maybe being a "batch problem"

I'd also like to add that while it is frustrating to see where Honda are at I think most of you seriously underestimate the skill needed to even do as badly as they are right now. They will get there. They just need time.
And remember - just because you have a theory about how or why they are doing something doesn't mean you have a clue about any of it.

Mercedes probably uses journal bearings which may be why you see little puffs of oil smoke come out the tail pipe as they have trouble with seals at low speeds. It's probably easier to use journal bearings on a long shaft that connects turbine, MGU-H, and compressor. Ceramic bearings may not work too well with such a long shaft, unless many bearings are used, and the problem with ceramic bearings is that they can be brittle, not such a big deal with a much smaller shaft on a conventional turbo, however a longer shaft is subjected to more resonance.

Ceramic bearings weakness is that they are brittle. So as long as they are not subjected to a mechanical shock they will be fine.
Also - Ball Bearing turbos are far more resilient to abuse than Journal Bearing turbos. That's a fact.

[MrPotatoHead]

@ the EM bearing supporters. Only a madman would use EM bearings for this application. I can't even believe this Idea is being entertained.

That was my thinking as well.
The EM noise that the MGU-H would generate by itself would make any kind of EM bearing almost impossible.

[GoranF1]

https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/stat ... 3068909568