McLaren investigation (beating the dead horse? sorry...)

[timbo]

From Macca press release (http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/02/ ... ce-claims/)

"It should be noted that none of the extensive searches or investigations completed to date have produced any evidence that the Ferrari documents which Mr Nigel Stepney handed over to Mr Michael Coughlan were ever passed to anyone else at McLaren Racing or used on the McLaren Formula 1 car."

Haven't they addmitted themselves that Ferrari tech info was dissiminated within the team?

[mcdenife]

Not really. Their admission was that it MAY have been dissiminated. ie, the evidence doesnt say one way or another.

[axle]

I'm totally unimpressed with the Italian authorities. I'm not even sure what it is they are trying to achieve. It's a sport and the governing body of the sport has made them pay a very hefty price. Surely that's it? As said no team it whiter than white.

Maybe we should send police over to Spain re the racism

[Belatti]

This makes me remember what Italian authorities did after Senna´s death. Personally, I think Italian authorities have tendencies to overreact ... in spanish that would be called: "quieren ser mas papistas que el papa".

They should dedicate to thier own bussiness istead of continue f*cking with whats left of a sport.

Everybody here knows that Im not a fan of any current driver or team, have no preferences at all, but if Ron quits cause of this, at least I´ll be as mad as Manchild was after McLarens penalty. And that IS a lot.

[P_O_L]

This makes me remember what Italian authorities did after Senna´s death. Personally, I think Italian authorities have tendencies to overreact ... in spanish that would be called: "quieren ser mas papistas que el papa".

They should dedicate to thier own bussiness istead of continue f*cking with whats left of a sport.

Everybody here knows that Im not a fan of any current driver or team, have no preferences at all, but if Ron quits cause of this, at least I´ll be as mad as Manchild was after McLarens penalty. And that IS a lot.

What a strange vieuw. Care to elaborate what exactly the italian magistrates did wrong after sennas death?

And they arent f**king around with OUR sport, they are giving statements about the criminal investigation on mclaren f1, a team that has smeared OUR sport. And it cannot be reminded enough what mclaren did.

Their statement, in judicial terms, is a laughing one. Sure they fired coughlan not because he showed the papers to everyone in the factory, so much, that they even tested the figures in the wind tunnel, no, they fired coughlan because he couldnt vacuumclean. Anyone who believes that oughta get his head checked.

Oh, and btw, the new mclaren head of PR, is the ex chief editor of an autosport spin of called F1 racing, where hed write columns week in and week out how ron dennis picked him, the mighty matt bishop, to have lunch with.

[axle]

Actually you can remind enough...you can remind so much that all of us want to slit our own wrists rather than go over it again

The Italian's were gutted that Senna died on their race track, they tried to have Frank and Patrick thrown in jail! And for what? Doing as Senna asked! Senna, and all the other legendary drivers died pushing the limits, and would never have expected others to be punished for their choices...

In a way the same can be said for McLaren...a few (compared to the 1000 employed there) individuals did the wrong thing, the GOVERNING BODY has dealt out the punishment. What's to be gained by going any further? Are hollow victories really that great?

Get some perspective...

[waynes]

Care to elaborate what exactly the italian magistrates did wrong after sennas death?

the italian magistrates basically threatened manslaughter charges against a number of people involved with Williams and also the Imola circuit. The judgement was passed, then a couple of years later, they brought the case back to court in a bid to basically drag Williams through the mud again

the italian judicial system is a joke and starts from the corrupt police

[P_O_L]

The Italian's were gutted that Senna died on their race track, they tried to have Frank and Patrick thrown in jail! And for what? Doing as Senna asked! Senna, and all the other legendary drivers died pushing the limits, and would never have expected others to be punished for their choices...

Get some perspective...

No wonder theres so much xenophobism in the UK with this kind of logic. Omfg the italians are a bunch of (insert abuse).

In reality the ITALIAN D.A. investigated and prosecuted the WILLIAMS F1 TEAM for manslaughter. Not such a bad idea since Sennas death was widely covered. If they didnt do anything one could have gotten the idea that THOSE LAZY ITALIAN (insert abuse) DONT DO ANYTHING FOR JUSTICE!!

In the end an ITALIAN judge deemed WILLIAMS F1 NOT GUILTY!!

So im a little puzzled here against wich action you are holding a grudge..the judge freeing Williams F1, or the Italian D.A., who simply did his job? Either way, saying 'the italians, or the italian authorities did it wrong, is a statement from somebody who has no clue about democracy in general or the concept of trias politica in particular.

[axle]

Before Senna how many other court cases had been brought against manufacturers because of a racing death?

The Italians have now done it twice...still the only ones desperate to win in a court room.

(Note I haven't used and abusive insult - despite your insintuation)

[P_O_L]

The Italians have now done it twice...still the only ones desperate to win in a court room.

(Note I haven't used and abusive insult - despite your insintuation)

But you generalise again saying THE ITALIANS while the only accurate statement should be THE ITALIAN D.A. OFFICE. In the end, it is the judge, and not the D.A. who determines who is guilty and who is not. In a common law system like yours, you should be celebrating the moon, as from this moment any future case, the defense can say this and this happened at the senna trial and the judge said: not guilty. End of story. It also appears as if the D.A. never went for a higher court ruling, therefore letting the matter rest.

[Belatti]

Thanks for saving me time waynes.

POL, you can´t punish a boxer if he kills an opponent with a punch. That sport is based in punching your rivals face. The same happens with F1. Williams F1 didn´t kill Senna.

Our Sport? you mean the one you 've been following for 5 minutes?

POL, seriously, I think you are in the wrong place, so if you want to stay, read about F1 history, began posting something with some technical relevance, beyond gosip chit-chat, for example, if you want to say that Ferrari seems faster in winter testing, you can make a Poll, a time comparison, make some graphics (follow Ciro´s good examples).

It seems clear to me that when someone says: "The Italians", he/she means people from Italian justice system. That´s not xenophobism, I have 50% Italian blood for gods sake!!! I cant have xenophobism against myself!

Justice barely exists, we all know its not perfect in this world. So, beyond one country´s justice system opinions, many poeple (including me) believe that McLaren already paid for what they could have done wrong, more than that, other teams (like your beloved Ferrari) have done it for years without punishments, so we feel the case should be closed and the eyes focused on racing.

[Tom]

I don't think that P_O_L should leave because he doesn't know F1 history I mearly think it should be the duty of those who know to teach and I think generally we do a good job of that. I'm not saying we should setup a year-by-year thread (although I wouldn't be against it) but its nice to think back to the good ol' days when drivers drove for passion and adventure without the need for millions of pounds going into their bank accounts. Of course if us being enlightened don't take it into account and don't respect the facts before forming opinions then I would suggest they left and didn't let the door hit them on the way out, lest we have to clean it.

[P_O_L]

Thanks for saving me time waynes.

POL, you can´t punish a boxer if he kills an opponent with a punch. That sport is based in punching your rivals face. The same happens with F1. Williams F1 didn´t kill Senna.

Our Sport? you mean the one you 've been following for 5 minutes?

POL, seriously, I think you are in the wrong place, so if you want to stay, read about F1 history, began posting something with some technical relevance, beyond gosip chit-chat, for example, if you want to say that Ferrari seems faster in winter testing, you can make a Poll, a time comparison, make some graphics (follow Ciro´s good examples).

It seems clear to me that when someone says: "The Italians", he/she means people from Italian justice system. That´s not xenophobism, I have 50% Italian blood for gods sake!!! I cant have xenophobism against myself!

Justice barely exists, we all know its not perfect in this world. So, beyond one country´s justice system opinions, many poeple (including me) believe that McLaren already paid for what they could have done wrong, more than that, other teams (like your beloved Ferrari) have done it for years without punishments, so we feel the case should be closed and the eyes focused on racing.

Justice barely exists is also a strange conclusion. If it wasnt for the ancient italians wed perhaps never had a judicial system in the first place!! Saying that ''the italians' clearly points to the judicial system is also a weak argument. I just pointed out you need to grasb the concept of the trias politica to know that a judge, a part of the italian judicial system, is impartial and works independent of the prosecution. And it looks to me the judge has decided that Williams F1 is not guilty. What exactly did you wanted him to do? Say Williams was guilty? In your logic you should praise the italian judicial system. And who says you cant punish a boxer if he kills somebody? The Italian D.A. thought he had enough evidence Williams was to blame for his death. Its his job and his duty to prosecute. After the verdict of the judge he could have appealed but dropped the case. Again, you can only praise the system if you really believe Williams was innocent.

And no, many people still think mclaren got away lightly. The accusation Ferrari have gotten away with the same are unsubstantiated and shows you simply have no case or arguments and run away in emotional nonsense. In that regard perhaps its you who should ponder wether youre in the right place or not. I can handle well backed up arguments that differ from my opinion. Can you?

[axle]

...

[Belatti]

I find P_O_L annoying and disruptive, but that can only be good.
You may ask why?
He simply doesn´t think like me, so that makes me think if I´m right or not.

I certinly don´t agree with his posts about "McLaren and Ron should burn in hell" and "Ferrari will wooop everyone *sses" but his last post about "Italian justice" makes some sense. So, some answers:

Justice barely exists is also a strange conclusion.

Justice is subjective to the senses of the ones who define and "try to achieve" it.

And it looks to me the judge has decided that Williams F1 is not guilty. What exactly did you wanted him to do?

Here you misunderstood me, I agree with the Judge (Williams is not guilty) but I was talking about The Italian D.A. (whatever that may be) and I thought he had NOT enough evidence Williams was to blame for his death. (Pay attention to my underlined words)

The accusation Ferrari have gotten away with the same are unsubstantiated and shows you simply have no case or arguments and run away in emotional nonsense. In that regard perhaps its you who should ponder wether youre in the right place or not. I can handle well backed up arguments that differ from my opinion. Can you?

Simply: any backed up arguments about Ferrari have gotten away with the same are in the hands of the ones who control F1, but doesn´t want them to see the light. Why? They need Ferrari. They ARE Ferrari. Ferrari controls F1. It´s Bernies word: "Ferrari is 50% of Formula 1, the other teams are the other 50%".
Ferrari is the untouchable.
So, virtually, there are NO evidences you or me can see. Now, any other team makes a step in the wrong direction and the witch hunt will began. That´s for sure. It happened with Renault and with McLaren (in 2007 and 1999 - remember 3rd pedal issue). If you are clever and beat them, you are punished.

The ones that go against the king are revels and will be beheaded.
You P_O_L made me sound like Manchild. Maybe he was right after all.