Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GoranF1]

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... ti-901040/


It seem like the "Mercedes help" ....actualy means Mercedes will alow Honda to use some of its supliers...maybe Mahle?

[PlatinumZealot]

Thoughts?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129258

Sauber has concluded a deal to use McLaren's Formula 1 gearboxes when it switches to Honda engines in 2018, Autosport understands.

I suppose it is common sense to use their gearboxes but they speculate this also.

The deal indicates McLaren is at least already committed to creating a gearbox that mates with Honda's 2018 engine, even though suggestions it will return to using Mercedes engines linger

I realise that may just be common sense to also use the McL gearboxes but the fact Kaltenborn would not comment on the matter is interesting. Sensitive information? Maybe this will assist in bedding rumours of a Merc engine change.

There will likely be NDA's in place between Sauber and McLaren over the gearbox supply and this is the kind of announcement you'd expect to come from McLaren to confirm the deal. I wouldn't read too much into it at this point.

No diffrent from them using Ferrari gearboxes so similar agreements will be made.

[FW17]

I think Honda has enough knowledge to make a gearbox and cf case uf required for sauber

They were one of the first to perfect the seamless shift tech in f1

Has gearbox tech made a substantial jump since 2008? Other than lifting of certain components to accommodate pull rod setup

[Chene_Mostert]

I think Honda has enough knowledge to make a gearbox and cf case uf required for sauber

They were one of the first to perfect the seamless shift tech in f1

Has gearbox tech made a substantial jump since 2008? Other than lifting of certain components to accommodate pull rod setup

Hondas is struggling to perfect a Pu... Really think they want to risk a gearbox?
BTW it was Williams that perfected the seamless shift in collaboration with BorgWarner...

[aral]

I would remind you that the topic of this thread is the Honda power unit. Talk of Moto GP seamless gearboxes does not belong here. Some posts have been removed , so please stay on topic.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I think this was mentioned before but wouldn't honda have been forced to supply sauber if they could not find a different engine for next season?

[Craigy]

I think this was mentioned before but wouldn't honda have been forced to supply sauber if they could not find a different engine for next season?

Yes. Appendix 9, Section B(ii) of the 2018 F1 sporting regulations shows the formula that the FIA are allowed to use to enforce this.

In fact, Sauber moving over to Honda power balances the number of supplies for each team as well as is numerically possible with 4 manufacturers and 10 teams: 3+3+2+2 (Mercedes/Renault/Ferrari/Honda) from the 2017 state of 3+3+3+1.

It's interesting to note that had Manor competed in 2017, the split would have been 4+3+3+1 this year.

Also from that document, it appears that in 2018, only 3 ICE/TC/ERS-H are permitted for the full year. This is presumably how the contractual cost for a season of PUs are being reduced (€12m this year, to €9m next).

Has anyone kept a count of all the PUs Honda has lost to damage so far, including testing and so on?

[63l8qrrfy6]

I think this was mentioned before but wouldn't honda have been forced to supply sauber if they could not find a different engine for next season?

Yes. Appendix 9, Section B(ii) of the 2018 F1 sporting regulations shows the formula that the FIA are allowed to use to enforce this.

In fact, Sauber moving over to Honda power balances the number of supplies for each team as well as is numerically possible with 4 manufacturers and 10 teams: 3+3+2+2 (Mercedes/Renault/Ferrari/Honda) from the 2017 state of 3+3+3+1.

It's interesting to note that had Manor competed in 2017, the split would have been 4+3+3+1 this year.

Also from that document, it appears that in 2018, only 3 ICE/TC/ERS-H are permitted for the full year. This is presumably how the contractual cost for a season of PUs are being reduced (€12m this year, to €9m next).

Has anyone kept a count of all the PUs Honda has lost to damage so far, including testing and so on?

Honda are on the 5th sets for some components, Ferrari pretty much on the 3rd set and Merc still on the first sets.

By the looks of it 3 PUs for one season will be unachievable. I think 4 is already too much of a stretch.

#14 Fernando Alonso: ICE - 2 | TC - 3 | MGU-H - 3 | MGU-K - 2 | ES - 1 | CE - 1
#2 Stoffel Vandoorne: ICE - 2 | TC - 5 | MGU-H - 5 | MGU-K - 2 | ES - 3 | CE - 3

This is a bit grim.

[Anony Mous Engineerd]

[/quote]
That is a misconception.
Fuel consumption (flow) is 100kg/h, it's the limit whether the engine produces 100 or 1000 HP. Point of the regulation is to squeeze maximum HP while staying inside of 100 kg/h of fuel flow.

If the engine has less power (and all other drive resistance relevant things are equal, like drag, rolling resistance, ..), the full throttle time per lap (and per time) goes up, car spends more time on the straights than another with more power.
Hence, more consumption.
[/quote]

I think one area that Honda is trying to improve upon with their size zero concept is really minimizing parasitic losses in the whole power-unit. The ICE is a light weight unit, and Honda is already leaning on their previous F1 experience with 2 sided and welded hollow connecting rods, and hollow friction welded crank shafts. I would wager a small sum of money that the issues they are having with the vibrations are coming from a total system with such small masses, is that they are running into harmonics that are smack dab in the middle of the engine's operating range. Honda knows better than to solve an issue with a natural frequency by adding mass to parts, so I feel strongly they are trying other methods to fix that dynamic imbalance. Any issues with the transmission are most likely related to friction down initiatives that may have resultant issues with pre-mature wear, especially if bearing surfaces were downsized to accommodate the low friction targets.

[Craigy]

Honda are on the 5th sets for some components, Ferrari pretty much on the 3rd set and Merc still on the first sets.

By the looks of it 3 PUs for one season will be unachievable. I think 4 is already too much of a stretch.

#14 Fernando Alonso: ICE - 2 | TC - 3 | MGU-H - 3 | MGU-K - 2 | ES - 1 | CE - 1
#2 Stoffel Vandoorne: ICE - 2 | TC - 5 | MGU-H - 5 | MGU-K - 2 | ES - 3 | CE - 3

This is a bit grim.

Mudflap, thanks for that, but I was actually looking for the total number of PUs used this year, including the ones not used for the championship (so, how many went bang in the preseason or at Bahrain?)

[Anony Mous Engineerd]

That is a misconception.
Fuel consumption (flow) is 100kg/h, it's the limit whether the engine produces 100 or 1000 HP. Point of the regulation is to squeeze maximum HP while staying inside of 100 kg/h of fuel flow.

If the engine has less power (and all other drive resistance relevant things are equal, like drag, rolling resistance, ..), the full throttle time per lap (and per time) goes up, car spends more time on the straights than another with more power.
Hence, more consumption.
[/quote]

I think one area that Honda is trying to improve upon with their size zero concept is really minimizing parasitic losses in the whole power-unit. The ICE is a light weight unit, and Honda is already leaning on their previous F1 experience with 2 sided and welded hollow connecting rods, and hollow friction welded crank shafts. I would wager a small sum of money that the issues they are having with the vibrations are coming from a total system with such small masses, is that they are running into harmonics that are smack dab in the middle of the engine's operating range. Honda knows better than to solve an issue with a natural frequency by adding mass to parts, so I feel strongly they are trying other methods to fix that dynamic imbalance. Any issues with the transmission are most likely related to friction down initiatives that may have resultant issues with pre-mature wear, especially if bearing surfaces were downsized to accommodate the low friction targets.
[/quote]


One more thought..

If they are doing an alternative firing order, either some sort of "big-bang" for better traction ( I highly doubt) or more likley for improved exhaust scavenging or intake harmonics/resonance, it would seriously compound their vibration problems....

[63l8qrrfy6]

Honda are on the 5th sets for some components, Ferrari pretty much on the 3rd set and Merc still on the first sets.

By the looks of it 3 PUs for one season will be unachievable. I think 4 is already too much of a stretch.

#14 Fernando Alonso: ICE - 2 | TC - 3 | MGU-H - 3 | MGU-K - 2 | ES - 1 | CE - 1
#2 Stoffel Vandoorne: ICE - 2 | TC - 5 | MGU-H - 5 | MGU-K - 2 | ES - 3 | CE - 3

This is a bit grim.

Mudflap, thanks for that, but I was actually looking for the total number of PUs used this year, including the ones not used for the championship (so, how many went bang in the preseason or at Bahrain?)

It's just that testing data is a bit fuzzy, hard to tell how many PUs were changed and whether or not they were damaged..

[godlameroso]

Apparently only 2 power units were damaged in winter testing. I'm sure Honda has been experimenting with different iterations. Honda never tests just 1, they test 3 or 4 and see which one works best, and often goes back to other previous designs if new knowledge can be applied to them. Obviously this is not possible in season, but pre-season they can homologate as many engines versions as they want.

[wuzak]

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... ti-901040/


It seem like the "Mercedes help" ....actualy means Mercedes will alow Honda to use some of its supliers...maybe Mahle?

Mahle is a Ferrari supplier - not Mercedes.

Mahle have been supplying Ferrari since 2012, at least.

[Hino]

I read an article indicating the Ferrari now owns Mahle. Also, I just read this article that goes in depth about Honda PU struggles. http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... explained/