2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[dren]

The MGUH is at the front? I thought it was still in the V.

[daren_p]

Realistically, Honda should work out most of their issues this year. They should be able to have a PU that is atleast better than last years, this year.

From a marcro point of view they've made 5 changes

1- Moved the MGU-K lower on the PU
2- Moved the MGU-H to the Front of the PU

Are you sure about these two points? I have not seen any mention of moving the MGU-K? It was mounted fairly low on the left side of the block from what I recall, not sure it could get much lower? They did say the COG is lower this year but don't think they gave any specific details as why. Though the MGU-H/turbo assembly should be mounted lower & it was said the engine block was lighter. As for the MGU-H to the front of the p/u, have not seen any mention of this either? As far as I know it is still between the compressor & turbine, inside the V. As far as we know, the compressor & turbine have now moved outside the V as per Mercedes.

[mrluke]

Ahh the 2014 Argument again. Yes the Chassis wasn't great. But at the end of 2014 they rebuilt almost their whole Operation and have been quite stable since. So basically everything you ask for?

The 2014 chassis logic relating to 2017 with a complete regulation overall is completely absurd. With that logic Ferrari still have a dog of an engine.

Realistically the performance gap is way too big to be overcome in this set of regulations. I don't think Honda are going to jump 100 bhp in one year. The most we have seen in season is from Renault which was about 40 bhp if I remember correctly.

We'll see how they get on at Monaco.

[Alonso Fan]

Ahh the 2014 Argument again. Yes the Chassis wasn't great. But at the end of 2014 they rebuilt almost their whole Operation and have been quite stable since. So basically everything you ask for?

The 2014 chassis logic relating to 2017 with a complete regulation overall is completely absurd. With that logic Ferrari still have a dog of an engine.

Realistically the performance gap is way too big to be overcome in this set of regulations. I don't think Honda are going to jump 100 bhp in one year. The most we have seen in season is from Renault which was about 40 bhp if I remember correctly.

We'll see how they get on at Monaco.

Too bad their star driver won't be there.

How about Hungary?

[diffuser]

Realistically, Honda should work out most of their issues this year. They should be able to have a PU that is atleast better than last years, this year.

From a marcro point of view they've made 5 changes

1- Moved the MGU-K lower on the PU
2- Moved the MGU-H to the Front of the PU

Are you sure about these two points? I have not seen any mention of moving the MGU-K? It was mounted fairly low on the left side of the block from what I recall, not sure it could get much lower? They did say the COG is lower this year but don't think they gave any specific details as why. Though the MGU-H/turbo assembly should be mounted lower & it was said the engine block was lighter. As for the MGU-H to the front of the p/u, have not seen any mention of this either? As far as I know it is still between the compressor & turbine, inside the V. As far as we know, the compressor & turbine have now moved outside the V as per Mercedes.

Sorry I mis-wrote, I meant the Compressor. You're right the MGU-H is still in the middle.

With regards to the MGU-K, I read it during or just after winter testing. I read that they had moved the MGU-K down to the bottom of the PU in the center. Hasegawa was quoted on Motorsport.

[Anony Mous Engineerd]

Ahh the 2014 Argument again. Yes the Chassis wasn't great. But at the end of 2014 they rebuilt almost their whole Operation and have been quite stable since. So basically everything you ask for?

The 2014 chassis logic relating to 2017 with a complete regulation overall is completely absurd. With that logic Ferrari still have a dog of an engine.

Realistically the performance gap is way too big to be overcome in this set of regulations. I don't think Honda are going to jump 100 bhp in one year. The most we have seen in season is from Renault which was about 40 bhp if I remember correctly.

We'll see how they get on at Monaco.

I could see Honda gaining that big bump in HP, especially if the reason they are purposely detuning the engine for reliability is a vibration / natural frequency issue popping up right in the middle of the peak operating range of the engine. It is rumored their compression ratios are ultra high (even among the other teams running the "pre-chamber combustion schemes" , and that the end goal is actually spinning all the way to the 15K rpm limit. (which I don't believe a lot of teams are achieving....)

[SameSame]

Ahh the 2014 Argument again. Yes the Chassis wasn't great. But at the end of 2014 they rebuilt almost their whole Operation and have been quite stable since. So basically everything you ask for?

The 2014 chassis logic relating to 2017 with a complete regulation overall is completely absurd. With that logic Ferrari still have a dog of an engine.

Realistically the performance gap is way too big to be overcome in this set of regulations. I don't think Honda are going to jump 100 bhp in one year. The most we have seen in season is from Renault which was about 40 bhp if I remember correctly.

We'll see how they get on at Monaco.

I think you misunderstand the point, its the logic behind the argument that makes no sense. "Look, they must have a poor chassis in 2017 because with a Mercedes PU in 2014 they still couldn't do well...".

[Chuckjr]

Thanks all for your feedback to my question. I now see both options much more clearly --sticking with Honda, or switching to Merc -- and both seem completely viable options from what I've read. Very difficult decision this is. I wonder what Fred thinks...

[daren_p]

Realistically, Honda should work out most of their issues this year. They should be able to have a PU that is atleast better than last years, this year.

From a marcro point of view they've made 5 changes

1- Moved the MGU-K lower on the PU
2- Moved the MGU-H to the Front of the PU

Are you sure about these two points? I have not seen any mention of moving the MGU-K? It was mounted fairly low on the left side of the block from what I recall, not sure it could get much lower? They did say the COG is lower this year but don't think they gave any specific details as why. Though the MGU-H/turbo assembly should be mounted lower & it was said the engine block was lighter. As for the MGU-H to the front of the p/u, have not seen any mention of this either? As far as I know it is still between the compressor & turbine, inside the V. As far as we know, the compressor & turbine have now moved outside the V as per Mercedes.

Sorry I mis-wrote, I meant the Compressor. You're right the MGU-H is still in the middle.

With regards to the MGU-K, I read it during or just after winter testing. I read that they had moved the MGU-K down to the bottom of the PU in the center. Hasegawa was quoted on Motorsport.

Wonder if he was quoted correctly (maybe should have been MGU-H lower?), where could they really put it that is lower then the previous position:

I could see Honda gaining that big bump in HP, especially if the reason they are purposely detuning the engine for reliability is a vibration / natural frequency issue popping up right in the middle of the peak operating range of the engine. It is rumored their compression ratios are ultra high (even among the other teams running the "pre-chamber combustion schemes" , and that the end goal is actually spinning all the way to the 15K rpm limit. (which I don't believe a lot of teams are achieving....)

No, the other teams aren't revving out to 15K because it doesn't make sense to in the current, fuel limited formula. I believe Honda already run higher then all the other p/u's but not by choice, they are currently doing it do get above the main resonance/vibration window that is currently causing them problems. If they solve the vibration, their shift points will likely drop.

[Cannonballer]

Thanks all for your feedback to my question. I now see both options much more clearly --sticking with Honda, or switching to Merc -- and both seem completely viable options from what I've read. Very difficult decision this is. I wonder what Fred thinks...

Fred thinks: "Why didn't I just stay at Ferrari? FML!" Although I do wonder if Ferrari would have taken the steps to clean house if not for the wake up call of his departure.

[SR71]

Thanks all for your feedback to my question. I now see both options much more clearly --sticking with Honda, or switching to Merc -- and both seem completely viable options from what I've read. Very difficult decision this is. I wonder what Fred thinks...

Fred thinks: "Why didn't I just stay at Ferrari? FML!" Although I do wonder if Ferrari would have taken the steps to clean house if not for the wake up call of his departure.

Fred didn't leave Ferrari. He was shown the door.

I do wonder the quality of feedback MAC is getting about their current chassis though, as Alonso said in Sochi that MAC's chassis was basically perfect.

[Sasha]

The MGUH is at the front? I thought it was still in the V.

Compressor is at the front,MGUH in the V.Both are lower on the engine this year.

[diffuser]

Thanks all for your feedback to my question. I now see both options much more clearly --sticking with Honda, or switching to Merc -- and both seem completely viable options from what I've read. Very difficult decision this is. I wonder what Fred thinks...

Fred thinks: "Why didn't I just stay at Ferrari? FML!" Although I do wonder if Ferrari would have taken the steps to clean house if not for the wake up call of his departure.

Fred didn't leave Ferrari. He was shown the door.

I do wonder the quality of feedback MAC is getting about their current chassis though, as Alonso said in Sochi that MAC's chassis was basically perfect.

Where were you when all that happened with Fred? They begged him to stay. I even remember a interview with James Allison. Reporter to Allison "Did you talk to Alonso? Did you try and convince him to stay?" Allison " yes, I did but at this point he's heard it from so many others that it's gonna be better that..."

[ALO_Power]

Thanks all for your feedback to my question. I now see both options much more clearly --sticking with Honda, or switching to Merc -- and both seem completely viable options from what I've read. Very difficult decision this is. I wonder what Fred thinks...

Fred thinks: "Why didn't I just stay at Ferrari? FML!" Although I do wonder if Ferrari would have taken the steps to clean house if not for the wake up call of his departure.

Fred didn't leave Ferrari. He was shown the door.

I do wonder the quality of feedback MAC is getting about their current chassis though, as Alonso said in Sochi that MAC's chassis was basically perfect.

I don't how this stupid rumor is still alive. Surprisingly, I see it quite often. As diffuser told, he was by no means shown the door. Ferrari was definitely begging him to stay and he also had a long term contract for another 2-3 years (can't recall exactly). Also yea, Allison told in 2015 that he was trying to convince Alonso that by 2015 they will be much better but he didn't want to believe this since each year they were promising him a title contender but it never arrived. He left not by breaking the contract but Montizemolo had told him (clause I guess) that if in 2014 they won't be fighting for the title he can leave and so he did. As if Ferrari is strong enough we will tell in Abu Dhabi.

[marvin78]

He had a title contender in 2010 and in 2012 also. I don't believe this bullshit of the miracles in the car. He is a very good driver but this cars were also good enough to win titles. If they werent't, Alsonso would not have been so close. I believe there is no black and white. It's partly Alonso leaving and partly that Ferrari didn't care enough because they got Vettel.