2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Pinger
Pinger
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Muniix wrote:
03 May 2017, 12:44


If you can get some pressure and temperature sensors in useful places, then sampling them with a cheap analyser, seeed studio have a cheep analyser that can be programmed with high sample rate, Infineon have crank angle sensor released this year and other sensors, from that you can get a better understanding of what is going on. A Sensata cylinder pressure only sensor would really help and not as expensive as a Kistler sensor though only good for 15k samples a second.
Thanks, but I suspect what you suggest is beyond my capabilities. Never say never though, depends on the progress I make and where I may end up with it.
For now, I want to reduce UBHC to a level I can pass a UK MOT test. If I can achieve that then I can sling one of the Mercs into a currentish road car (otherwise it's pre 1975 or build from scratch) and do mpg comparison tests between standard and modified. This I suspect will be for my own benefit only - I doubt that it can be commercialised.

The twin crank LPG engine you go on to describe - is that something you are working on? (I noticed the Suzuki Supermono mentioned earlier in this thread). And for what use? (LPG doesn't strike me as obviously relevant to road use but only because of the tanks required). Am I correct in thinking that the TJI lean burn concept is probably what will replace CI as the prevalent source of propulsion for our motorcars? If so, will it be in 4T form only? (It doesn't strike me as playing to 2T strengths).
Last edited by Pinger on 03 May 2017, 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

Muniix
Muniix
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 13:04
P, you could even tap some real inexpensive analog dial pressure gauges into various points on your mill..
( inlet tract/crankcase/transfer, etc), & record the range/fluctuations - on high speed video..
You want data in a form you can work with that is Digital. This needs to be automated you press start and everything is done in software.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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[quote=J.A.W.]
P, you could even tap some real inexpensive analog dial pressure gauges into various points on your mill..
( inlet tract/crankcase/transfer, etc), & record the range/fluctuations - on high speed video..[/quote]

you would of course need to use a scanning valve with such gauges - (if 'real' gauges ie Bourdon type)


btw - can Manolis stop namechecking Junkers ?
thousands of Doxford designed OP engines were made over several decades after any involvement of Junkers ended in 1926
and Doxford licensed its designs to others
http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters ... 0Paper.pdf

Junkers didn't see that their WW2 3 bank engine only needed 3 crankshafts (a UK Admiralty draughtsman did and invented the Deltic)
in WW2 Junkers made some good (aircraft) engines but they were SI of course

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Joined: 17 Feb 2016, 21:36

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 02:08
From an official data base source: http://www.marinecouncil.org.au/engine-database/

Two engines compared, 250hp class S.I.,outboard motors:

1, 2T cylinder ported, crankcase scavenged DI - Evinrude G2.
2, 4T OHC variable valve timing fuel injected - Honda.

Both are premium CARB 3-star emissions rated: HC/NOx & CO, respectively.

1, Evinrude 2T; HC/NOx 12.2; CO 48.7.
2, Honda 4T; HC/NOx 13.2; CO 91.7.

HC is hydrocarbon - from burning fuel & oil, - & as can be seen..
.. the 2T does not show excessive oil loss via its construction of cylinder ports being swept by piston/rings..
I hope you are now past your emotional outburst and can have a normal conversation.

From that very website:
Traditional two strokes (carburetor or EFI, but not direct injection DI) are much higher emitters of HC. This is in part because unburnt fuel and oil are pushed out the exhaust during ( which also explains the higher fuel consumption) . two stroke fuel is a mixture of petrol and oil – and this also adds to the HC load.
In addition, I think modern high ester low ash 2 stroke oils do not emit as much HC as 4 stroke oils.
This tells me that HC emissions are not a reliable way to quantify oil consumption.

Muniix
Muniix
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Pinger wrote:
03 May 2017, 17:41
Muniix wrote:
03 May 2017, 12:44


If you can get some pressure and temperature sensors in useful places, then sampling them with a cheap analyser, seeed studio have a cheep analyser that can be programmed with high sample rate, Infineon have crank angle sensor released this year and other sensors, from that you can get a better understanding of what is going on. A Sensata cylinder pressure only sensor would really help and not as expensive as a Kistler sensor though only good for 15k samples a second.
Thanks, but I suspect what you suggest is beyond my capabilities. Never say never though, depends on the progress I make and where I may end up with it.
For now, I want to reduce UBHC to a level I can pass a UK MOT test. If I can achieve that then I can sling one of the Mercs into a currentish road car (otherwise it's pre 1975 or build from scratch) and do mpg comparison tests between standard and modified. This I suspect will be for my own benefit only - I doubt that it can be commercialised.

The twin crank LPG engine you go on to describe - is that something you are working on? (I noticed the Suzuki Supermono mentioned earlier in this thread). And for what use? (LPG doesn't strike me as obviously relevant to road use but only because of the tanks required). Am I correct in thinking that the TJI lean burn concept is probably what will replace CI as the prevalent source of propulsion for our motorcars? If so, will it be in 4T form only? (It doesn't strike me as playing to 2T strengths).
TJI has been tested with 2 strokes and there are benefits, a research paper has been published and referenced in this forum, think it is an Australian one, my document library is down atm, my semantic search is not showing it.

TJI was voted Automotive Innovation of the year for 2016. So TJI should take over diesel market, it is currently achieving the same 46% thermodynamic efficiency, maybe more with offset crankshafts kinematics currently being researched and clever strategies controlling cylinder pressure and bearing friction as one can implement the friction models into the engine management as virtual sensors to take into account in engine operation, optimise cylinder pressure for less negative work and improvement in conversion of pressure to rotational torque.

In Oz our taxi cab fleet is Autogas LPG, even some of the Toytota Hybrids are converted using the direct injection, due to LPG vaporising at -44 it burns better and < 200 g/kW/h is seen. Gaining up to 12% power using the same fuel mass has been demonstrated with DI of LPG.

Australia has heaps of gas, the #2 exporter if not #1, just not for ourselves and we pay 2 x $ for it at the moment! $20 a gigajoule! But our gas industry is cashed up and generous, it looks good if they are supporting Oz innovations hence why the design is using LPG first, it's also a nice challenge and what is not to like about the extra torque, multiphase is easier to implement, then once experiience is gained, try to replicate with liquid fuels.



Currently our Auto industry is in decline so employing some gives laid of engineers gives the current government bragging rights supporting local innovations. Opportunistic timing for me.

Type 5 full carbon fibre pressure vessels in non conformal shapes are now manufactured and used by the aerospace industry, we make various components for the Joint Strike Force fighter, similiar technology is used for light weight lpg pressure vessels.

At 2kg of LPG per 100 klms 10-14kg gets you a fair distance and one can package the super capitor energy storage with the fuel tanks crevices between cylinder gap at top & use lower gap for intake and a large air filter, fuel tank top surface has Australian developed printed polymer photo electric 9% efficient solar cells to charge energy storage and operate bike security system while it is parked.

Li-ion energy storage provides 6-16 minutes pure electric operation with more banks optional.

The engines alternator and starter replaced with a 48 volt ISG.

These are all Oz technology, printed solar cells, multi sheet Graphene super capitor, Bishop valve, CF/cfrp pressure vessels​, Jet ignition, power train vibration and torsional research ...

Then for safety you have V2x communication, and beam forming Lidar from our Astronomy research being commercialised for vehicle situation awareness, small low mass and doesn't rotate so no moments ideal for motorcycles. Australia leads in V2x systems again due to our radio Austronomy research, V2x provides collision detection, traffic lights information, very useful for bikes in the 2020s.

Mandated in the US and EU. V2x includes V2p for Pedestrian Mobile devices so soon no more people walking into vehicles watching their phone, they will notify them they are about to walk into a vehicle or even traffic light pole.
Last edited by Muniix on 04 May 2017, 12:37, edited 2 times in total.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Mudflap wrote:
03 May 2017, 22:34
J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2017, 02:08
From an official data base source: http://www.marinecouncil.org.au/engine-database/

Two engines compared, 250hp class S.I.,outboard motors:

1, 2T cylinder ported, crankcase scavenged DI - Evinrude G2.
2, 4T OHC variable valve timing fuel injected - Honda.

Both are premium CARB 3-star emissions rated: HC/NOx & CO, respectively.

1, Evinrude 2T; HC/NOx 12.2; CO 48.7.
2, Honda 4T; HC/NOx 13.2; CO 91.7.

HC is hydrocarbon - from burning fuel & oil, - & as can be seen..
.. the 2T does not show excessive oil loss via its construction of cylinder ports being swept by piston/rings..
I hope you are now past your emotional outburst and can have a normal conversation.

From that very website:
Traditional two strokes (carburetor or EFI, but not direct injection DI) are much higher emitters of HC. This is in part because unburnt fuel and oil are pushed out the exhaust during ( which also explains the higher fuel consumption) . two stroke fuel is a mixture of petrol and oil – and this also adds to the HC load.
In addition, I think modern high ester low ash 2 stroke oils do not emit as much HC as 4 stroke oils.
This tells me that HC emissions are not a reliable way to quantify oil consumption.
"Emotional outburst"?
Mf, still with the 'projection' I see.. its a maladaptive response, & not "normal", y'know..

Anyhow, re: 'traditional' old style 2T engines - what purpose is served by stating the obvious?

Current 2T DI engines utilize discretely metered quantities of fresh, clean lubricant injected to specific points within the engine, under precise computer control - unlike the 'traditional' 2T 'wash-through' of 'premix' fuel/oil..
Never-the-less, both methods are 'total loss', with the lube burned & emitted along with the fuel residues.

The CO emissions levels tell their own story about combustion efficacy though, of course..

Current outboards whether 2T or 4T specify modern oils, with synthetic ester bases, & consumption rates are
easily checked by reference to levels, in the tank for 2Ts, & crankcase/sump for 4Ts..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
03 May 2017, 19:38
J.A.W. wrote: P, you could even tap some real inexpensive analog dial pressure gauges into various points on your mill..
( inlet tract/crankcase/transfer, etc), & record the range/fluctuations - on high speed video..
you would of course need to use a scanning valve with such gauges - (if 'real' gauges ie Bourdon type)


btw - can Manolis stop namechecking Junkers ?
thousands of Doxford designed OP engines were made over several decades after any involvement of Junkers ended in 1926
and Doxford licensed its designs to others
http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters ... 0Paper.pdf

Junkers didn't see that their WW2 3 bank engine only needed 3 crankshafts (a UK Admiralty draughtsman did and invented the Deltic)
in WW2 Junkers made some good (aircraft) engines but they were SI of course
T-C, you may find this paper of interest: www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a800960.pdf

It is a mid 1940's US 'war-booty' appraisal of German 2T engineering.. ( including racing engines).
.. & it states unequivocally that Doxford/Junkers were pretty much 'hand in glove' design-wise..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

manolis
manolis
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Pinger.

You write:
“How do you assemble one-piece rods on a one-piece crank?”


The plain bearings at the big ends of the connecting rods of the PatOP are from a BMW 1600cc (48x52).

With the crankpins being 48mm in diameter and the big-ends being 52mm in diameter, the connecting rods, one by one, pass at their respective crankpins.

Then, between each crankpin and its respective con-rod big-end it is inserted the one half of the plain bearing.
Then the other half of each plain bearing is press-inserted.




You also write:
”Curious also as to what lead (CAD) you have given your exhaust pistons?


First PatOP ptotoype timing:

The exhaust opens 70 degrees before the BDC and closes 70 degrees after the BDC.

The intake opens 60 degrees before the BDC and closes 60 degrees after the BDC.

The symmetrical timing (crankpins at 0 and 180 degrees) was selected as preferable for the first PatOP prototype (single cylinder) for the sake of the full inertia balance.


In tests performed with the OPRE prototype engines:

Image

even with 11 degrees asymmetry (the exhaust piston arrives at its TDC 11 crankshaft degrees earlier than the intake piston) the inertia vibrations are still tolerable.


By the way:

According Hugo Junkers the “optimum asymmetry” in an Opposed Piston is 11 degrees (his Jumo engines use this 11 degrees asymmetry).

In the famous Napier Deltic engines:

Image

the architecture / geometry requires 20 crankshaft degrees asymmetry (almost the double than the “optimum” of Junkers), however this proved in practice still OK.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Muniix
Muniix
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 13:29
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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I was initially moderately impressed with the design concept, more conventional engineers in the industry I'd showed it to not as impressed as I was, apperently couldn't just see it for the concept ignoring everything else.

<While i'm waiting for a hpc cluster orchestration to complete, got to fix the composition orchestration logic, formal orchestration languages are cool, congrats to the developer of the opensource JolieLang, you provide a very useful tool>

You really need to identify the inertial loads and losses over the speed range, mechanical efficiency numbers to offset the high percieved inertia seen in the design. Without facts your toasted.

The Cross 4 cylinder radial layout RV engine had a novel low loss cranktrain that was responsible for its high mechanical efficiency giving it good fuel use numbers, many didn't realise this aspect of the design, some peole did.
manolis wrote:
03 May 2017, 11:17
Hello all.

Marc Jackson (Muniix) wrote:

“Which has a huge amount of ring friction area, 3 ring packs with 1 huge bore.

It has reduced turbulence at start of combustion due to reduced piston velocity towards TDC compared to mean piston velocity. This slows combustion significantly requiring the engine to run at higher speeds and greater losses consuming more fuel less effiently.

Slower combustion causes higher heat loss, Lower thermodynamic efficiency.

All those large big end bearings have clearly not been through any size or friction optimisation, the bigend larger than the mains, insane more excessive friction and masses increasing inertial forces combined with its need to run at higher speeds this is terrible design.

<padding snipped out>

The structure of the PatOP (pulling rods, wrist pins at the opposite – cold - side of the crankshaft relative to the “combustion piston crown” etc) enables the integration, without increasing the number of parts used, of a scavenging pump.

The additional cost: a set of piston rings!

Several marine 2-stroke engines (those with the near 50% brake thermal efficiency) had “piston type” scavenge pumps.

<further padding snipped>

In the PatOP things are different and more efficient than in the old marine engines with the piston-type scavenge pumps:

the big piston of the scavenge pump is secured on the “free” backside of the “inner” combustion piston of the PatOP (which means: it is driven directly, without adding connecting rods or crankpins etc).
With the big diameter scavenge piston at its backside, the “inner piston assembly” of the PatOP gets as heavy as the “outer piston” assembly (that with the two “barrel cross-heads).

The crankshaft needs not balance webs, at all, which, among other, allows single piece crankshaft and connecting rods to be used:
Yes the inner piston gets as heavy as the the "outer piston" assembly (that with the two barrel cross-heads).

This mass in the design describes a slow speed engine, yet you repeatedly talk of running at 6,000 rpm. The slowed piston motion near tdc suggests a high mean piston speed is its prefered operation with larger losses, to assist heat conduction in CI combustion, reducing emissions, production of unwanted combustion species.

It has a split personality to its design.

This all confirms my original statement that it has excessive masses, larger big end and increased inertial forces due to high reciprocating and rotating masses of a slow speed engine.

Sometimes merging things into one is a terrible idea, for instance telescopic forks, merging braking, steering and suspension is a terrible idea. Your scavenging piston pump is conceptually a good one when optimised with all the mechanical losses taken into consideration.
The fluid flow from scavenging pump need to be studied, the long channel may consume energy with compressible gas.

No external balance shafts are required.

The PatOP, even in the single cylinder version, is an engine which, without any balance web, is fully balanced.

Slower piston at the combustion dead center and combustion efficiency:

Even with the best fuel, the power of a compression ignition engine drops steeply after, say, 4,500 rpm.
Facts to back these statements up, i've driven a Audi A3 TDI and the DSG changes up at 6,000 when you sink your foot in sport mode.

Addintionally Banks power run their modified Ford ecotec V6 diesels at 6,000, they would go faster as Gale Banks now knows. He architected the software with a 6,000rpm limit, he now regrets that decision. Talk to him he will confirm this.
This is because the fuel needs time (absolute time, in milliseconds) to get prepared before the combustion.

What the PatOP and the OPRE (i.e. the pulling connecting rod architecture) offer?

Time. Absolute time:

http://www.pattakon.com/opre1_files/OPREdwell.gif

At 6,000rpm pistons of the PatOP remain in the last 15% of their stroke

http://www.pattakon.com/pre/img18.gif

for more than 30% than the piston of a conventional running at the same revs.

With the same BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) the compression ignition engine can make some 30% higher power, because the PatOP can burn its diesel fuel efficiently (in time) at 30% higher revs.
Where is the cylinder pressure data to confirm this, because this contradicts the published data and experience.

You need to provide evidence to contradict established well understood and evdence based knowledge.

From another point of view: at the same revs with a conventional, the PatOP has 30% more time that gives the chance for the optimization of the injection of the fuel.
Cancelled out by the extra engine speed needed, lack of turbulence, heat loss etc. You are cherry picking information again to support a silly opinion that doesn't stand up to challenge.

This plot :

http://www.pattakon.com/tempman/pre_comp.GIF

shows that during most of the compression and the expansion, the piston of the PatOP moves, more or less, as fast as the piston of the conventional, and that during the end part of the piston stroke the piston of the PatOP “stops” and gives time to the combustion.
Plots are for school kids, engineers use graphs of actual data. Post data, we are not in primary school here.
Anyway, this is where all the turbulence dissapates nearly completely.
With the additional time provided by the pulling rod architecture, the designer has more options: at low revs the fuel can be injected substantially later (in crank degrees), while at high revs the fuel can be injected earlier (again in crank degrees) because at the same angle before the TDC the “compression” in the PatOP is substantially higher.
This flies in the face of the latest strategies to reduce diesel emmissions


I think everybody gets the idea, manolis has not realised we want facts.
Last edited by Muniix on 04 May 2017, 07:38, edited 2 times in total.

manolis
manolis
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Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Hello Tommy Cookers.

You write:
“btw - can Manolis stop namechecking Junkers ?
thousands of Doxford designed OP engines were made over several decades after any involvement of Junkers ended in 1926
and Doxford licensed its designs to others”



OK.
From now on: “Doxford”, not Junkers-Doxford.



By the way:

The giant multicylinder “Doxford” single-crankshaft marine Opposed Piston engines:

Image

Image

had an apparent design weakness / “flaw”:

they were too long due to the required side connecting rods and crankpins for the driving of the top pistons.

Look at the above drawing: the cylinder axis to next cylinder axis distance (cylinder offset) is more than three times the cylinder bore.

Think of the inevitable bending of the long engine during an ocean storm.



A multicylinder PatPOC :

Image

Image

seems less than half long than a similar capacity Doxford marine.

And it is way better balanced (vibration free quality).

(more at: http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatPOC.htm )



Think how many thousands of tons of steel, how many millions of working hours and how many millions of dollars would be saved if they were using the PatPOC design.

Think also how many sea accidents would be avoided (due to the reliability issues of the extremely long crankshaft and engine).

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Muniix wrote:
04 May 2017, 06:22
I was initially moderately impressed with the design concept, more conventional engineers in the industry I'd showed it to not as impressed as I was, apperently couldn't just see it for the concept ignoring everything else.

...your toasted... ..insane... ...terrible design.

<padding snipped out>



<further padding snipped>

It has a split personality to its design.


Cherry picked...

Facts to back these statements up, i've driven a Audi A3 TDI and the DSG changes up at 6,000 when you sink your foot in sport mode.

Addintionally Banks power run their modified Ford ecotec V6 diesels at 6,000, they would go faster as Gale Banks now knows. He architected the software with a 6,000rpm limit, he now regrets that decision. Talk to him he will confirm this.
...silly opinion...
Plots are for school kids... we are not in primary school here.


I think everybody gets the idea, manolis has not realised we want facts.
Marc, despite having been provided with direct feedback, it seems you are unable to check/moderate yourself, or demonstrate an acceptable level of polite discourse.. ..&, your disregard of forum norms - amounts to trolling..
..evidently you have no concept of communal decency or personal shame.. its quite a lack, & does you no credit..

Look up 'pot/kettle/black' - as a concept.. it is how you operate here.. & at a 'primary school kid' level of maturity..

Anyhow..

Obviously such CI machines as the Audi - as a sporty passenger car, are in a different class to industrial-type engines..

I do note however, that Audi have withdrawn from CI competition motor sports, in which they had been granted
various 'Formula' advantages over SI engines - in order to compete.. perhaps due to VW-Audi CI emissions scandals?

& 2T CI engines are under renewed focus as 4T engine emission levels of diesel fuel particulates are targeted for bans..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

gruntguru
gruntguru
565
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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Muniix wrote:
04 May 2017, 06:22
Cancelled out by the extra engine speed needed, lack of turbulence, heat loss etc. You are cherry picking information again to support a silly opinion that doesn't stand up to challenge.
Manolis claimed the availability of 30% higher revs as a benefit of the slow piston motion not a necessity. It is circular to argue that the extra speed is needed, then claim that the slow piston motion causes loss of turbulence when in fact at 30% higher revs the piston motion near TDC is the same and therefore produces the same turbulence.

Anyway, as I stated previously, turbulence is simply designed-in, after the architecture, piston motion and engine speed have been determined. There is no loss of turbulence.

Your language puzzles me. Where is the need call someone's opinion "silly"? Especially when it is not silly at all. "Doesn't stand up to challenge"? You have not provided any evidence to support your "challenge". In fact your "challenge" is as weak as water.
This plot :
http://www.pattakon.com/tempman/pre_comp.GIF
shows that during most of the compression and the expansion, the piston of the PatOP moves, more or less, as fast as the piston of the conventional, and that during the end part of the piston stroke the piston of the PatOP “stops” and gives time to the combustion.
Plots are for school kids, engineers use graphs of actual data. Post data, we are not in primary school here.
Anyway, this is where all the turbulence dissapates nearly completely.
More unnecessarily derogatory language. The plot does exactly what the poster claims. It illustrates the piston motion - EXACTLY! No need for experimental data. Some mid-level trigonometry is all that's required to verify the accuracy of the plot.
je suis charlie

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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& what would Jebus.. ah, Kevin Cameron.. say?

See here: www.cycleworld.com/two-strokes-live-on- ... ead-center
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

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This classic L.J.K. Setright tome - features many interesting 2T engines..

www.pigeonsnest.co.uk/stuff/some-unusua ... gines.html
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

manolis
manolis
107
Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 10:00

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Hello all.


This array:

Image

and this plot:

Image

show “relative data”.




TIME:

If the Audi TDi “changes” at 6,000rpm, a “similar” PatOP (or OPRE) would change at 7.800rpm (1.3*6,000rpm).

Why?

Because the PatOP running at 7,800 keeps the piston at the last 15% of its stroke for as long as an Audi Tdi DSG ( running at only 6,000rpm ) keeps its piston at the last 15% of its stroke.

To get an idea what this 15% means for an engine having 16.5:1 compression ratio: while the “actual” expansion ratio for a fuel droplet burnt exactly at the TDC is 16.5:1, for a fuel droplet burnt when the piston is 15% of its stroke away from the TDC the actual expansion ratio is 5.7:1.

The 30% higher (efficient) rev limit of the PatOP means proportionally higher power output.
And because the PatOP is a 2-stroke:
with the same BMEP with the Audi Tdi DSG, the PatOP will make (from the same capacity) 2.6 times more power,
and with only 85% of the BMEP of the Audi Tdi DSG (judging from the marine engines wherein the medium speed 4-strokes run at 25bar MEP while the low speed 2-strokes run at 20+ bar MEP), the PatOP would make “only” 2.2 times the power of the Audi Tdi DSG.




INERTIA:

With half stroke per piston (same “combined” stroke), the acceleration of a PatOP pistons is half than the conventional (at the same revs) and 15% lower when it runs at 30% higher revs than the conventional.

With, say, 110 bars maximum pressure (direct injection turbo diesel), the maximum gas force on each piston of the PatOP prototype engine is 5.5tons (55,000N).

With the 64mm piston stroke of the PatOP prototype (128mm combined stroke), the resulting inertia acceleration at 7,800rpm is 2,700g (27,000m/sec^2).

With 95.5mm combined stroke (47.75mm piston stroke), i.e. as large as the piston stroke of the AUDI Tdi DSG, the maximum acceleration of the piston of the PatOP drops to 2,000g at the 7,800rpm.

Accordingly, the inertia loads in a “similar” PatOP running at 30% higher revs than the conventional Audi Tdi DSG are still way lower than the combustion loads.




FRICTION:

Regarding the mechanical friction: just like the Achates Power, the Junkers Jumo and the Doxford, the PatOP is a 2-stroke engine; and as such it has substantially lower Friction Mean Effective Pressure (FMEP) than a “similar” four stroke Audi Tdi DSG.




DATA:

Has anyone, ever, seen a dyno plot of a motorcycle (say a CRF450 Honda, or other, it doesn’t matter) or of a car engine having the Cross-Bishop rotary valve on the its cylinder head?

Or a “specific fuel consumption” plot?

Or, preferably, a “lube specific consumption” plot?


The most relevant info I found in the web is the Ralph Watson rotary valve (quite similar to the Cross and to Bishop rotary valve) mounted on an old V-90 two-cylinder air-cooled engine.

Image

Image


Can someone tell the difference between the Watson and the Bishop rotary valves?


QUOTE from Watson’s article at http://ralphwatson.scienceontheweb.net/rotary.html
“Oil consumption amounts to less than a litre in 5,000 miles and multi-grade oil has always been used.
When compared with the original much modified poppet valve engine, the rotary valve engine has slightly more power and this results in an extra three m.p.h. top speed. There was a significant increase in low speed torque and this is of considerable advantage, in view of the fact that the car has only a three-speed gearbox. In view of this, I was unwilling to open the valve timing further, at the risk of spoiling the power curve, which exactly suits the car. The rotary valve engine has proved more economical than the original engine and the increase in torque would no doubt account for this.”

End of QUOTE.



Quote from Marc Jackson’s (Muniix) post:

“Where is the cylinder pressure data to confirm this, because this contradicts the published data and experience.
You need to provide evidence to contradict established well understood and evdence based knowledge.”


Thanks
Manolis Pattakos