Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

A friendly reminder for the lost.

Honda's now CC doesn't work as planned.(Simon's design)

So it will need to be replaced with a new design.(heads and pistons)

It might not be ready until 2018 season because Honda must do the D in the R&D that they didn't do the first time.
Hope is it is ready after the Summer break this season.

Wow, so does that mean they'll be backmarkers until that happens, with no improvement in the mean time?

[PlatinumZealot]

Pre chambers in natural gas engines work even though in many cases the gas is mixed with air before the turbo.
No injection in cylinder whatsoever.

You answered precisely why!
There is already a honogenous mix that is pushed into the chamber. Or there is a second injection of fuel and air in the prechamber itself.

The former may work in F1 but what i am pointing out is that at these AFR it is difficult to get a rich mixture in the pre chamber if you have a direct injector located outside the prechamber.

I think there is a special mechanism at play to get that rich mix in the prechamber and to have the proper jet action. I have a few ideas.... Might just mention one now.

idea #1... More than one injector is used (loop hole)
You all already know my first idea already. That two injectors are used. One in the chamber and one outside it.

Idea #2 - boosted EGR used for ignition

My other idea is that a hig pressure EGR pump is used. This pump distributes hot high pressure gasses from the exhaust into the pre-chambers of the different cylinders. The pump raises the pressure to above compression prrssure and solenoid rleases the hot gasses into the prechamber. A plasma may or may not be made from these gases on their way to the chamber.
The jets are made and ignition occurs in the main chamber.

[makecry]

A friendly reminder for the lost.

Honda's now CC doesn't work as planned.(Simon's design)

So it will need to be replaced with a new design.(heads and pistons)

It might not be ready until 2018 season because Honda must do the D in the R&D that they didn't do the first time.
Hope is it is ready after the Summer break this season.

Wow, so does that mean they'll be backmarkers until that happens, with no improvement in the mean time?

Were you really expecting a miracle step forward? We are "NEVER" going to have that miracle stop forward. It's not going to come. Just a shame.

[godlameroso]

you really living up to your user name.

[Sasha]

A friendly reminder for the lost.

Honda's now CC doesn't work as planned.(Simon's design)

So it will need to be replaced with a new design.(heads and pistons)

It might not be ready until 2018 season because Honda must do the D in the R&D that they didn't do the first time.
Hope is it is ready after the Summer break this season.

Wow, so does that mean they'll be backmarkers until that happens, with no improvement in the mean time?

They can still do better mapping and solve the vibration problem or give it a band-aid.

[godlameroso]

If only there was a way to harvest that vibration energy. Alas we can only burn stuff for energy, harnessing resonant frequencies and using them to do work is beyond our comprehension.

[mrluke]

So have we ruled out that the vibration is driveline related i.e. weak gearbox.

[JuanjoTS]

The more I look at the TJI injection scheme, the more I doubt it is actually implemented like the pictures in the Mahle explanations of it.

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120103302

I think what ever gains you could get from the pre-chamber combustion, would be eliminated by what would seem to me be, really poor atomization and homogeneous distribution in the rest of the main part of the combustion chamber...

The presence of a pre-chamber has no effect on the ability to achieve correct atomisation and homogeneity in the main chamber.

What happens to the spray from the injector, impinging on the internal surfaces of that little "pre-chamber" to eventually leaking out the rest of the holes in that extra part? I think the losses from that, would be greater than the pre-chamber. How could the injector spray not just "leak out" of that tiny chamber?

The pre-chamber is charged during the compression stroke and airflow is inwards to the pre-chamber only.

How does fuel not build up in the pre-chamber and completely soak the spark plug creating a fouling concern?

If we knew what they are doing inside an F1 engine we wouldn't need all the experts here on this forum. The Mahle system works - no question. How they do it with one injector is conjecture. You can be pretty sure the injector is not in the pre-chamber.

I think a fine atomization from the injector, and a great deal of tumble leading to a high value of overall turbulent kinetic energy right around a normal parkplug would be better in this racing application than the TJI.

The object is to burn a very lean mixture at a high rate. This can't be done the way you are suggesting.

All the pressure and velocity of fuel particles, I'd bet, would be gone by the time the fuel leaves the injector and builds up in the pre-chamber. Could the rapidly rising pressure in the combustion chamber cause an even higher likely hood that fuel coming out of the pre-chamber would not be well atomized.....

Its not fuel coming out of the pre-chamber. It is hot jets of partially burned combustion products. The idea of the pre-chamber is to provide an environment where the mixture is rich enough to burn rapidly and consistently, then use this energy to ignite a wide area of the main chamber where the mixture is too lean to burn rapidly and reliably with a conventional spark.

Until I see real pictures from an F1 engine with that system. I don't think any team has actually implemented it (in the fashion shown in mahle patents and websites.) , and this is a red-hearing...

I believe there has been official confirmation from at least one team that they are using this technology.

I think we could make sure the spark plug is in the pre-chamber and the injector is not in the pre-chamber. Speculation has limits, there are so many concepts as individual ideas of each, of course, we will not know how they work on each F1 team until they reveal it.

[JuanjoTS]

If the injector is not in the pre-chamber, then how would the mixture get richer inside of it?

It is not a different mixture, it is not a rich and a poor one, the spark of the spark plug is used in a smaller space, the same spark that was used to burn the whole mixture of the cylinder is now used to burn only between 3% And 7% of the total of the mixture (pre-combustion chamber), in turn that percentage already ignited is used to combust the rest of the mixture. The concept is that it burns better and more efficiently (needs less richness the mixture) than if the entire mixture of the cylinder is ignited with the spark of the spark plug directly.

[ronanharris09]

A friendly reminder for the lost.

Honda's now CC doesn't work as planned.(Simon's design)

Who is Simon ?

[ronanharris09]

Gilles Simon ?

[Sasha]

Gilles Simon ?

correct

[Andres125sx]

A friendly reminder for the lost.

Honda's now CC doesn't work as planned.(Simon's design)

So it will need to be replaced with a new design.(heads and pistons)

It might not be ready until 2018 season because Honda must do the D in the R&D that they didn't do the first time.
Hope is it is ready after the Summer break this season.

Wow, so does that mean they'll be backmarkers until that happens, with no improvement in the mean time?

Were you really expecting a miracle step forward? We are "NEVER" going to have that miracle stop forward. It's not going to come. Just a shame.

If you can see the future you´re wasting your time here, go and buy some lottery numbers

[Andres125sx]

A friendly reminder for the lost.

Honda's now CC doesn't work as planned.(Simon's design)

So it will need to be replaced with a new design.(heads and pistons)

It might not be ready until 2018 season because Honda must do the D in the R&D that they didn't do the first time.
Hope is it is ready after the Summer break this season.

Honda concept does not work as planned, but that should not mean the project must be stopped and start from scratch again, right?

Or it´s so flawed they really have to start from scratch again?


I was expecting they can solve those problems for next allocation. That´s what Hasegawa said after all. But if they have to start a new project and wait until next season.... that would be worst news

Are you sure about this Shasha? What you´re saying is VERY serious...

[J.A.W.]

I expect that Honda, so proudly the 'World's No 1 maker of engines' - is in a bit of a quandary..
They have to balance their contract failure costs if they withdraw, against the cost of a dismal spectacle on track..