Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[KingHamilton01]

it seem's like there could be some truth in the Mercedes Rumours and perhaps today's performance is the beginning of the end for Honda?

http://www.f1talks.pl/2017/05/12/bild-m ... e-z-honda/

[ojlopez]

It's oil. If oil is falling out of somewhere, it tends to seperate on the way down. Especially if it doesn't holds any water percentage, it will have a low density (<0.85 kg/l). The lower the density, the better for them.

Cooling fluid will stay connected longer and by the looks, it's not water.


For this amount of oil leaking, it must have been a pipe come off. No way this could pour like this out of the engine if something punched somewhere a hole in.

I agree, the only way to lock the wheels is if the crankshaft or gearbox seize. The oil looks very light in density, so it must be hot motor oil.

[Anony Mous Engineerd]

Rumors from different sources...

A bearing seized in the motor, and a rod vacated itself out the side of the block, If you watch the event happening, dark oil does indeed pour out from underneath the car before it is lifted into the air in two distinct streams. Once it is up in the air, coolant accumulated on the floor/ trays comes rushing out as the damage to the block must have included the coolant jacket or passage way. It may have been an older spec motor, and not what they planned on racing on Sunday.

Regarding the rumors of outside help. Honda already has a working relationship with AVL, and they may be tapped for assistance in working out the reliability issues they are struggling with. I'm not sure if my buddy at HPD gets super accurate information, but it seems on the dyno, they may not be far off on power anymore with the ICE. It's the harvesting and storage on the MGU-K?H that they are struggling with. Zytek may have been or could be still involved for now.... but maybe not for long?

[makecry]

Rumors from different sources...

A bearing seized in the motor, and a rod vacated itself out the side of the block, If you watch the event happening, dark oil does indeed pour out from underneath the car before it is lifted into the air in two distinct streams. Once it is up in the air, coolant accumulated on the floor/ trays comes rushing out as the damage to the block must have included the coolant jacket or passage way. It may have been an older spec motor, and not what they planned on racing on Sunday.

Regarding the rumors of outside help. Honda already has a working relationship with AVL, and they may be tapped for assistance in working out the reliability issues they are struggling with. I'm not sure if my buddy at HPD gets super accurate information, but it seems on the dyno, they may not be far off on power anymore with the ICE. It's the harvesting and storage on the MGU-K?H that they are struggling with. Zytek may have been or could be still involved for now.... but maybe not for long?

Didn't they basically solve that last year and that the ICE was lacking power and fuel efficiency "bigly"?

[piast9]

Here is the video with the breakdown:

[Del Boy]

it seem's like there could be some truth in the Mercedes Rumours and perhaps today's performance is the beginning of the end for Honda?

http://www.f1talks.pl/2017/05/12/bild-m ... e-z-honda/

Good. I hope Mercedes is helping them with a Ferrari and Renault side order. F1 was created to prevent run what you brung racing, or a formula where the cars are evenly matched. All of the pages and pages of technical and sporting regulations were created to stop domination. It's meant to be closely matched racing where the driver can make a difference.
What we actually have is Bernie's version of F1, he always looked for a technical advantage as a team boss; 1000bhp qualifying engines, Fan cars, etc. And he merely managed that as the F1 ringmaster, he suffers from short man syndrome (go on delete that moderators) and become one of the richest men in the world at the detriment of our beloved sport!
I come onto this forum to read and digest the fantastic technical knowledge of people like Tommy Cookers, Andreas, Godlameroso and many more. The jury's for me is still out on Wazari I want him to predict something that comes true if he really is so ingrained in Honda! The Honda PU is deep in the sh*t and needs lots of help for the sake of a Formula 1 and that help can be Ross Brawns biggest step towards Formula 1 being a must watch Sunday afternoon spectacle.
I appreciate this is not necessarily on topic however it is about the Honda PU and I truly believe project Honda needs to work for the sake of formula 1, we all believe in F1 or we wouldn't be reading most of the cr*p posted here to extract the few nuggets of true information that provide hope of better days and closer racing.

[etusch]

Rumors from different sources...

A bearing seized in the motor, and a rod vacated itself out the side of the block, If you watch the event happening, dark oil does indeed pour out from underneath the car before it is lifted into the air in two distinct streams. Once it is up in the air, coolant accumulated on the floor/ trays comes rushing out as the damage to the block must have included the coolant jacket or passage way. It may have been an older spec motor, and not what they planned on racing on Sunday.

Regarding the rumors of outside help. Honda already has a working relationship with AVL, and they may be tapped for assistance in working out the reliability issues they are struggling with. I'm not sure if my buddy at HPD gets super accurate information, but it seems on the dyno, they may not be far off on power anymore with the ICE. It's the harvesting and storage on the MGU-K?H that they are struggling with. Zytek may have been or could be still involved for now.... but maybe not for long?

Didn't they basically solve that last year and that the ICE was lacking power and fuel efficiency "bigly"?

This year they uses new ers and according to what I read earlier pages here, with tji combustion, electric generation is less than conventional ignition.
What they did last year not guarantee this year especially if they change so many things. They had good reliability on engine side but this year they are not good at that

[Chicane]

"The oil pressure dropped completely," explained Hasegawa. "The engineer told Alonso to stop the engine, but it was too late.

"There was a big hole in the bottom of the engine and the oil is missing. I don't know the reason why the oil leaked, but that is the reason why it blew."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... re-904920/

[godlameroso]

Rumors from different sources...

A bearing seized in the motor, and a rod vacated itself out the side of the block, If you watch the event happening, dark oil does indeed pour out from underneath the car before it is lifted into the air in two distinct streams. Once it is up in the air, coolant accumulated on the floor/ trays comes rushing out as the damage to the block must have included the coolant jacket or passage way. It may have been an older spec motor, and not what they planned on racing on Sunday.

Regarding the rumors of outside help. Honda already has a working relationship with AVL, and they may be tapped for assistance in working out the reliability issues they are struggling with. I'm not sure if my buddy at HPD gets super accurate information, but it seems on the dyno, they may not be far off on power anymore with the ICE. It's the harvesting and storage on the MGU-K?H that they are struggling with. Zytek may have been or could be still involved for now.... but maybe not for long?

Didn't they basically solve that last year and that the ICE was lacking power and fuel efficiency "bigly"?

More efficient combustion means less heat for the turbine, less heat for the turbine, less energy to potentially harvest. Less energy to harvest means less ERS deployment, less ERS deployment means less power.

The holy grail is to have an ICE capable of ~800+ hp without MGU-K assistance, that can harvest ~5+MJ/lap combined, and deploy directly from the MGU-H to the MGU-K for a total 50+ second per lap deployment at full power without depleting the battery.

Right now Honda has a ~760hp ICE and can only deploy ~3MJ/lap without depleting the battery. In order to deploy longer they must give more power to the MGU-H at the expense of ICE power. This reduces combustion efficiency and increases fuel consumption, but allows enough recovery to not deplete the battery. They are a long way off the holy grail figure that Mercedes and Ferrari have achieved.

These numbers are not exact and for illustration purposes only.

[amho]

More efficient combustion means less heat for the turbine, less heat for the turbine, less energy to potentially harvest. Less energy to harvest means less ERS deployment, less ERS deployment means less power.

I think that more efficient combustion does not neccessarily means less heat for turbine, more efficient combution might also means extracting more heat from a given fuel so higher pressure of combustion product to move piston and also as for turbine.
In a case that exhaust valves remain closed for a longer period during expansion stage then u have more efficiency and less remaining exhaust gas pressure for turbine which I don't think this is used for these high revving engines as u know in high revolution it's better to open exhaust valve earlier to have a longer exhaust duration.

[godlameroso]

More efficient combustion means less heat for the turbine, less heat for the turbine, less energy to potentially harvest. Less energy to harvest means less ERS deployment, less ERS deployment means less power.

I think that more efficient combustion does not neccessarily means less heat for turbine, more efficient combution might also means extracting more heat from a given fuel so higher pressure of combustion product to move piston and also as for turbine.
In a case that exhaust valves remain closed for a longer period during expansion stage then u have more efficiency and less remaining exhaust gas pressure for turbine which I don't think this is used for these high revving engines as u know in high revolution it's better to open exhaust valve earlier to have a longer exhaust duration.

What kind of cam angle separation do you think these engines run? Any overlap? Long duration intake or exhaust cam? More intake valve lift, or exhaust?

[PlatinumZealot]

Back to the engine performance.... I think there is a reasonable improvement in performance this week. The car looked pretty handy with Vandoorne. Never mind the connecting rod making an exit like Barney Rubble, It could be because the combustion was so powerful! Lol

[godlameroso]

Back to the engine performance.... I think there is a reasonable improvement in performance this week. The car looked pretty handy with Vandoorne. Never mind the connecting rod making an exit like Barney Rubble, It could be because the combustion was so powerful! Lol

I thought the engine update is not for another 2 races(Montreal)?

[Vegetabill]

Back to the engine performance.... I think there is a reasonable improvement in performance this week. The car looked pretty handy with Vandoorne. Never mind the connecting rod making an exit like Barney Rubble, It could be because the combustion was so powerful! Lol

I thought the engine update is not for another 2 races(Montreal)?

Hasegawa states there was a small update for this weekend. I assume it was on both cars. Not sure it is on the 14 car's new PU.

http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/2017/sp ... -practice/

[mattia.bobbo]

Don't know if somebody already told that, but Alonso PU was brand new. And it lasted 1km. First rumors told that is was a PU used in australia and bahrain. Here is the link, sorry, it's in Italian.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/clamo ... km-905065/