2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Vegetabill]

I think that is down to experience as much as talent. Alonso is in his 16th season as an F1 driver. That's 16 different cars designed to 16 sets of rules with 16 different engines and 16 Grand Prix weekends at Barcelona. He knows his style, he can set a car up and is in complete control when given a good car. Vandoorne is undoubtedly fast but will become more refined with experience.

[daniellammers]

@Vegetabill
I am sure that you can see at Vandoorne it. I didnt watch Vandoorne qual lap here. But watched onboard lap both at Russia gp. Alo drives like his car on rail but Vandoorne make many contras

Contras as in steering corrections?

[GoranF1]

@Vegetabill
I am sure that you can see at Vandoorne it. I didnt watch Vandoorne qual lap here. But watched onboard lap both at Russia gp. Alo drives like his car on rail but Vandoorne make many contras

Contras as in steering corrections?

Yes that is what he ment....

[Sonador]

I think that is down to experience as much as talent. Alonso is in his 16th season as an F1 driver. That's 16 different cars designed to 16 sets of rules with 16 different engines and 16 Grand Prix weekends at Barcelona. He knows his style, he can set a car up and is in complete control when given a good car. Vandoorne is undoubtedly fast but will become more refined with experience.

I kind of agree with what you are saying, but

Carlos Sainz, Max Verstappen, Pascal Wehrlein, Esteban Ocon, must be driving gods then ....
They were instantly on the pace/quick, and are able to extract the most out of a racingcar.

Vandoorne now is on Strolls and Palmers level.
I am not saying Vandoorne must beat Alonso, but he is miles away from the pace of his teammate.
Were Alonso can drive around problems, Vandoorne is not able to.

I was very impressed with Vandoorne in every categorie he competed, but i am a bit dissapointed with his performances thus far. Alonso can adapt his driving style to the needs of a car.
Button could also do that, but maybe a bit less then Alonso. I don't think it is setup issues, i think it is his driving style in general.

I think over time he will get it right, just as Palmer did at the end of last year.
Just needs more time, in the meanwhile i and maybe Mclaren Honda just missing Button a bit ...

[etusch]

The days Alonso back to Renault from Mclaren, I remember Piquet was talking about his and Alo's performans. He was saying that "during driving car behind Alo, when I brake late as much as him I cant keep car stable, If I keep car stable I cant brake like him". Alo also said these kind of things this year about race line and braking points of other drivers compared him from his sight.

[proteus]

The delta to Ferrari is 1.8 sec. Surely, some of that has to be the chassis.

Indeed the chasis itself is still not as fast as the top trio, but by my estimation it isnt more than 0,5 secondish behind Mercedes. Alonso lost only a fraction in the middle sector in comparison with Ferrari and Mercedes.

I must say the chasis is in good shape (and dont forget how much less it was tested), but i must eat my words as well and admit that Honda delivered as well. They still need to find 3-4 tenths per sector by the engine alone, but if they start delivering like they did today, than something is moving in the right direction. I just seriously hope that the engine doesnt explode in first couple of laps, i hope it lasts to the end and enables them to score some points. Even though the season started very bad, they were close to get to the points twice but lost them because of the engine expiration. Ihreally really hope it goes to the end.

How do you differentiate between running high downforce and drag (good in the corners, bad on the straights) vs how well the engine is performing?

Ferrari were much faster than Mercedes through the speed traps, is that because they have much more power?

Its pretty unlikely that Mclaren are losing over 1sec per lap due to the PU. 80bhp kers was always quoted as 0.4s per lap so they would need to be around 200bhp down for the whole lap to lose 1s. I know it is popular to bash Honda but they aren't that short of power.

The engine itself is not so far behind on power (aparently the electric part cant keep the pace), acceleration itself is decent as well, since we can see that Mclaren excels at starts, but in terms of quali mode peak power the whole power package is somewhere 1 second behind the Mercedes, if u like it or not. Riciardo laughed when FIA presented figures that Renault is in 0,3sec bracket stating that they are atleast 0,5sec behind, and there is no secret that Honda is still behind Renault. Aparently they managed to do something for today that impressed many people, including myself as well, but in the other hand firstly their hybrid engine must provide its services for the whole race with decent power levels, not just the cruising speed outside the points.

[ripper]

Chassis is good, but it is possible that the gap between the pu during qualify shrinks because they don't need to save fuel, they start with full ES and harvesting energy is less important.

As far as we know Honda ICE hp isn't the main problem.

Kudos to Alonso, he did a wonderful lap.

[Alonso Fan]

Indeed the chasis itself is still not as fast as the top trio, but by my estimation it isnt more than 0,5 secondish behind Mercedes. Alonso lost only a fraction in the middle sector in comparison with Ferrari and Mercedes.

I must say the chasis is in good shape (and dont forget how much less it was tested), but i must eat my words as well and admit that Honda delivered as well. They still need to find 3-4 tenths per sector by the engine alone, but if they start delivering like they did today, than something is moving in the right direction. I just seriously hope that the engine doesnt explode in first couple of laps, i hope it lasts to the end and enables them to score some points. Even though the season started very bad, they were close to get to the points twice but lost them because of the engine expiration. Ihreally really hope it goes to the end.

How do you differentiate between running high downforce and drag (good in the corners, bad on the straights) vs how well the engine is performing?

Ferrari were much faster than Mercedes through the speed traps, is that because they have much more power?

Its pretty unlikely that Mclaren are losing over 1sec per lap due to the PU. 80bhp kers was always quoted as 0.4s per lap so they would need to be around 200bhp down for the whole lap to lose 1s. I know it is popular to bash Honda but they aren't that short of power.

The engine itself is not so far behind on power (aparently the electric part cant keep the pace), acceleration itself is decent as well, since we can see that Mclaren excels at starts, but in terms of quali mode peak power the whole power package is somewhere 1 second behind the Mercedes, if u like it or not. Riciardo laughed when FIA presented figures that Renault is in 0,3sec bracket stating that they are atleast 0,5sec behind, and there is no secret that Honda is still behind Renault. Aparently they managed to do something for today that impressed many people, including myself as well, but in the other hand firstly their hybrid engine must provide its services for the whole race with decent power levels, not just the cruising speed outside the points.

To add to this

If you have noticed in the races especially, the Honda pu has to harvest much more often than other engine manufacturers. Every time I see its harvesting, harvesting during braking harvesting in the corners harvesting even under acceleration. The ICE is already behind and on top of that they can't harvest nearly as much energy as other teams.
I would love to see a comparison lap of Fernando and one of the force Indias

[nzjrs]

Wasn't paying attention

[Alonso Fan]

Side by side qualifying lap comparison with Hamilton

https://youtu.be/x00ZrN2UhHk

Amazing lap.

The merc is from 2016. That's almost pointless

[nzjrs]

Side by side qualifying lap comparison with Hamilton

https://youtu.be/x00ZrN2UhHk

Amazing lap.

The merc is from 2016. That's almost pointless

My bad. Deleted. Have a hug [-o<

[The_table]

I found some info on why Stoffel is quite outclassed by Alonso so far...

From Boullier:(Dutch)

"Stoffel weet zelf heel goed wat zijn probleem is. Ik heb het er al met hem over gehad: hij moet zijn rijstijl nog beter aanpassen aan de formule 1. Het gaat vooral om de manier waarop hij remt. Stoffel remt enorm laat voor een bocht, en gaat nog met de voet op de rem in de bocht. Omdat hij het zo geleerd heeft."

Na de babbel met Boullier ga ik vlug kletsen met iemand die gespecialiseerd is in de opstapklassen. "Klopt helemaal", zegt die collega. "Zo leren ze het jonge coureurs in de formule 4. En zo moet je het ook nog altijd doen in de GP2 (het kampioenschap waarin Stoffel in 2015 schitterde, jb). Omdat je die auto's met hun achterkant moet doen uitslaan, wil je ze perfect in de bocht zetten. Anders ben je nooit snel in die kampioenschappen."

Eric Boullier, daarnet nog: "In Formule 1 moet je anders rijden dan in de opstapklassen. Iets vroeger remmen, en als je de auto in de bocht duwt vooral niet meer remmen. Dat moet Stoffel nog leren." En dat bedoelt Boullier niet als kritiek. Ede teambaas: "Natuurlijk niet. Het is het probleem van iedere coureur die uit die opstapklassen overstapt naar formule 1: de aanpassing is groot. En het is ook geen punt waar we ons zorgen over maken, want dit is iets dat zeker goed komt. Het is een kwestie van tijd en aanpassen. En verwacht vooral niet dat zoiets na vier of vijf raceweekends voor mekaar komt." Plots snap ik ook wat Boullier gisteren (zie mijn dagboek van zaterdag) bedoelde, toen hij zei dat hij wat op Stoffel had "ingepraat"

Translation:

Stoffel knows exactly what his problem is. I have talked to him about it:he needs to modify his driving style even more to fit formula 1. The main issue is the way he's braking. Stoffel brakes very late and trails the brakes into the corner. Because he was taught this way.

(Quote from some guy who knows quite a bit about the feeder series.)
To drive a GP2 car fast the back must step out to place the car in the corner properly.

In Formula 1 you must drive differently than in the feeder series. Brake earlier and when you push the car into a corner do not trail the brakes. This is what Stoffel needs to improve on. Apparently Boullier has talked to Stoffel about this and they are quite patient with him, they do not expect immediate change but a change must come.

(Apologies for the lazy translation...)
Source:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/954/Formule-1/ ... onso.dhtml

[Edax]

I found some info on why Stoffel is quite outclassed by Alonso so far...

From Boullier:(Dutch)

"Stoffel weet zelf heel goed wat zijn probleem is. Ik heb het er al met hem over gehad: hij moet zijn rijstijl nog beter aanpassen aan de formule 1. Het gaat vooral om de manier waarop hij remt. Stoffel remt enorm laat voor een bocht, en gaat nog met de voet op de rem in de bocht. Omdat hij het zo geleerd heeft."

Na de babbel met Boullier ga ik vlug kletsen met iemand die gespecialiseerd is in de opstapklassen. "Klopt helemaal", zegt die collega. "Zo leren ze het jonge coureurs in de formule 4. En zo moet je het ook nog altijd doen in de GP2 (het kampioenschap waarin Stoffel in 2015 schitterde, jb). Omdat je die auto's met hun achterkant moet doen uitslaan, wil je ze perfect in de bocht zetten. Anders ben je nooit snel in die kampioenschappen."

Eric Boullier, daarnet nog: "In Formule 1 moet je anders rijden dan in de opstapklassen. Iets vroeger remmen, en als je de auto in de bocht duwt vooral niet meer remmen. Dat moet Stoffel nog leren." En dat bedoelt Boullier niet als kritiek. Ede teambaas: "Natuurlijk niet. Het is het probleem van iedere coureur die uit die opstapklassen overstapt naar formule 1: de aanpassing is groot. En het is ook geen punt waar we ons zorgen over maken, want dit is iets dat zeker goed komt. Het is een kwestie van tijd en aanpassen. En verwacht vooral niet dat zoiets na vier of vijf raceweekends voor mekaar komt." Plots snap ik ook wat Boullier gisteren (zie mijn dagboek van zaterdag) bedoelde, toen hij zei dat hij wat op Stoffel had "ingepraat"

Translation:

Stoffel knows exactly what his problem is. I have talked to him about it:he needs to modify his driving style even more to fit formula 1. The main issue is the way he's braking. Stoffel brakes very late and trails the brakes into the corner. Because he was taught this way.

(Quote from some guy who knows quite a bit about the feeder series.)
To drive a GP2 car fast the back must step out to place the car in the corner properly.

In Formula 1 you must drive differently than in the feeder series. Brake earlier and when you push the car into a corner do not trail the brakes. This is what Stoffel needs to improve on. Apparently Boullier has talked to Stoffel about this and they are quite patient with him, they do not expect immediate change but a change must come.

(Apologies for the lazy translation...)
Source:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/954/Formule-1/ ... onso.dhtml

Thanks, but I find it difficult to believe. Stoffel has been a F1 test driver for several years, yet he doesn't know how to brake in one?

[The_table]

It's not that he doesn't know, it's that he needs to get better .

[JuanjoTS]

From my position in the circuit I can think of a couple of points in particular. Stoffel was very bad between turns 6 and 7, stopped accelerating ahead of time, then accelerated a short time later to slow down, it was as if he was unsure. On the chassis, the one that later braked between the 6th and 7th was Mercedes, then RedBull followed by Ferrari and McHonda tied, then came the rest. Renault also seems to be very close at that point with Ferr and McHonda.
https://goo.gl/photos/uJv32UksPT3F6uQo6