Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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amho
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Sasha wrote:
21 May 2017, 19:19
In un-educated terms. :D

Under load Honda's CC Design isn't working.The fuel isn't going where it is suppose to go in the main chamber that leads to very very lean areas in the main chamber=eating pistons and destroyed engine.

The bandage fix is running the engine rich=no power and bad MPG.

Mid-term fix is new CC design(Heads, pistons and injectors)

Long term fix is almost a whole new PU design.(because of vibrations)
You mean that Honda couldn't apply an adequate load on their single cylinder engine on test bench?!! for sure they could do..
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Sasha
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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They only ran into the problem when the complete ICE(6 cylinders) was run on the dyno.

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JonoNic
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Wow! Some conversations are becoming way too technical for me. Are you guys suggesting that the three pre-chambers on one bank be interlinked by some air passage? This would allow the unsealed per-chamber (and currently linked to the other pre-chambers) to reach the correct AFR as there is some form of 'outlet for this stroke'. When the pre chamber is 'filled' then it can be sealed via valve long before it affects compression and combustion in the chamber. This could allow the injector to be outside the pre-chamber. Isn't it? If I'm talking nonsense then at least I tried :D
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GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Honda V6 b-TURBO Indy...66 min. change of engine. #offTopic
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hurril
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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n4rf wrote:
21 May 2017, 18:56
Raising my hand. Been involved part-time in R&D as a student since 2010, full-time in scientific research since 2015 doing my PhD .
I'm not particularly involved in the design part per se, but in the thermodynamic testing, combustion concepts and specifically in calibration and function development. However, feedback to the design usually comes from thermodynamic testing, so there's that.
I have no idea how you arive at the conclusion of your first sentence. As mentioned by others, it is general knowledge in engine development, that pre-ignition is a common issue in highly boosted, high bmep gasoline DI engines.
Knocking is also an issue, I didn't mean to say that it isn't. It's just, that knocking is really well understood and, to a certain degree, easy to cope with. Obviously, dealing with knocking usually is detrimental to the thermal efficiency of the engine, so there's that. There's also always different categories of "knock limit". The one most people that have been at an engine test bench will know is the safe limit. Depending on the manufacturer they define some limit that, in their experience, will ensure that there's no longterm problems with mechanical defects or unsatisfactory NVH behaviour in the vehicle. Then there's the thermodynamic limit. This is usually quite a lot higher and much more dangerous to test, because it usually is only a small distance from causing broken parts. The thermodynamic limit is defined by the point, where allowing increased knocking doesn't yield any benefits anymore. Basically, it is running into combustion instabilities to an extent, where the better center of combustion (MFB50) doesn't is counteracted by these instabilities.
In general, knocking is less of a problem with increased engine speed. But all of the "in general" has to be viewed as exactly that. Engine specific problems can be surprisingly simple and yet at the same time difficult to overcome.

On the other hand we have pre-ignition. This can easily destroy an engine within one combustion cycle, though that's not the usual situation. But the really worrying part is, that it can often not really be controlled. At least not from one cycle to the next, like knocking with retarding the spark. Since the F1 teams run with pressure transducers in the cylinders, at least they should be able to react to pre-ignition events, because they actually see them. In road cars it's usually not possible for the ECU to detect them.

Regarding the pre-chamber spark plug. The main difficulty is the injector design, specifically the spray target. I do not know, what exactly the teams are doing. But research engines with pre-chamber spark plugs have been operated successfully with conventional injectors with injection during the suction stroke and homogeneous charge operation. I remember a dissertation from RWTH Aachen from somewhere around 2008 (I think), where this was tested extensively. One of the results was, that a scavenged pre-chamber will work much better, but that's not allowed under current F1 regulations. However, the focus was not necessarily maximum thermal efficiency.
An influx of fuel/air mixture into the pre-chamber from the main combustion chamber has to happen during the combustion stroke, because there is a pressure difference between the pre-chamber and the main-chamber (due to the compression). I don't know, however, if that can be sufficient for achieving desirable lambda values in the pre-chamber for the whole operating range.
I actually like the idea of an injector that sits sort of in-between the two chambers. If that is mechanically feasible is another question. Maybe one single injector spray aimed directly towards a whole in the pre-chamber could also work. It is certainly possible to design an injector in that fashion.
What I do know from reliable sources is, that the teams are running homogeneous lean charge in the main combustion chamber. The same sources also tell me, that there's no real "super-lean" stuff going on, certainly nothing above 2.0, usually some way below that. Also makes sense, when you remember that the fuel mass is fixed. That means, that increasing the air/fuel ratio leads to an increased boost pressure demand. So you need to balance the thermodynamic benefits in the cylinder (if there are any left above lambda 1.5-ish) against the losses due to higher compression work. That then also depends on your choice of turbocharger and your MGU-H strategy.
As ever with these engines, after thinking about it for more than 15 Minutes, you arrive at the simple conclusion, that it is much more difficult to get the best design, than you would initially think.

That's enough rambling for today, I think ;)
Please ramble more! :)

Edax
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Sasha wrote:
20 May 2017, 19:40
One of the persons who designed the new CC/heads/pistons stated it would take about 4 months.(stated in late Feb)
July? after Summer Break?

And that timeframe is only if there is no major problems.

Also the vibrations are like a Godzilla running in the building!
That vibration makes me wonder. In a road car it is easy to decouple the engine from the frame via the mounting. In F1 the engine and gear case are hard-coupled together and has to be accounted for in dynamic analysis. Could that be a source for correlation issues or are the eigenfrequencies too far apart?

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
21 May 2017, 04:42
With those fine nozzle holes in the pre-chamber.. Why would the fuel mist move inside the pre-chamber easier than the main chamber which has no such restrictions to moovement? Worse it is driving against a dead end and possible high concentration gradient. Not sure getting inside the pre-chamber richer would happen without alot of momentum in that direction..
Air is flowing into the pre-chamber for most of the compression stroke - the mass in the pre-chamber increases by about 10 fold during compression. Any fuel droplets and vapour mixed in that air will be carried along with it.
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gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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MrPotatoHead wrote:
21 May 2017, 15:14
mwillems wrote:
21 May 2017, 13:16
Sasha wrote:
21 May 2017, 07:53
Injector is always in pre-chamber under the rules of only one per cylinder.
Probably this a is a stupid question, but is it possible that the one injector could span two chambers, with two exits? What exactly constitutes a second injector?
Possible and extremely likely. You're not going to convince 3% of the fuel to magically go hide in a secret chamber with tiny entrance holes otherwise 😛
At least not with the precision and repeatability required for it to happen under these kinds of loads.
There is at least one paper on TJI that discusses testing done with no injection in the pre-chamber at all. Provided the mix in the main chamber is rich enough (and that mix is adjacent to the pre-chamber (testing was PFI homogeneous mix)) it will flow into the pre-chamber during the compression stroke.
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MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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gruntguru wrote:
22 May 2017, 00:31
MrPotatoHead wrote:
21 May 2017, 15:14
mwillems wrote:
21 May 2017, 13:16


Probably this a is a stupid question, but is it possible that the one injector could span two chambers, with two exits? What exactly constitutes a second injector?
Possible and extremely likely. You're not going to convince 3% of the fuel to magically go hide in a secret chamber with tiny entrance holes otherwise 😛
At least not with the precision and repeatability required for it to happen under these kinds of loads.
There is at least one paper on TJI that discusses testing done with no injection in the pre-chamber at all. Provided the mix in the main chamber is rich enough (and that mix is adjacent to the pre-chamber (testing was PFI homogeneous mix)) it will flow into the pre-chamber during the compression stroke.
How would the pre-chamber be richer than the main chamber if that was the case? Isn't that one of the prerequisites of TJI?

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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n4rf wrote:
21 May 2017, 18:56
What I do know from reliable sources is, that the teams are running homogeneous lean charge in the main combustion chamber. The same sources also tell me, that there's no real "super-lean" stuff going on, certainly nothing above 2.0, usually some way below that. Also makes sense, when you remember that the fuel mass is fixed. That means, that increasing the air/fuel ratio leads to an increased boost pressure demand. So you need to balance the thermodynamic benefits in the cylinder (if there are any left above lambda 1.5-ish) against the losses due to higher compression work. That then also depends on your choice of turbocharger and your MGU-H strategy.
I ran through the calculations some time ago. Increased boost pressure is fairly neutral, the extra compression work being cancelled by the extra turbine work available (at the higher PR and higher mass flow). That was for steady state turbine and compressor flows and isentropic efficiencies of 80%. Higher efficiencies favour increasing the PR and lower efficiencies the opposite.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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MrPotatoHead wrote:
22 May 2017, 00:38
gruntguru wrote:
22 May 2017, 00:31
MrPotatoHead wrote:
21 May 2017, 15:14

Possible and extremely likely. You're not going to convince 3% of the fuel to magically go hide in a secret chamber with tiny entrance holes otherwise 😛
At least not with the precision and repeatability required for it to happen under these kinds of loads.
There is at least one paper on TJI that discusses testing done with no injection in the pre-chamber at all. Provided the mix in the main chamber is rich enough (and that mix is adjacent to the pre-chamber (testing was PFI homogeneous mix)) it will flow into the pre-chamber during the compression stroke.
How would the pre-chamber be richer than the main chamber if that was the case? Isn't that one of the prerequisites of TJI?
Read my first post on this topic. Spray-guided injection early in the intake stroke produces somewhat homogeneous mix. Spray-guided injection (in the direction of the pre-chamber) early in the compression stroke produces stratification favouring the pre-chamber.
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MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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gruntguru wrote:
22 May 2017, 00:40
n4rf wrote:
21 May 2017, 18:56
What I do know from reliable sources is, that the teams are running homogeneous lean charge in the main combustion chamber. The same sources also tell me, that there's no real "super-lean" stuff going on, certainly nothing above 2.0, usually some way below that. Also makes sense, when you remember that the fuel mass is fixed. That means, that increasing the air/fuel ratio leads to an increased boost pressure demand. So you need to balance the thermodynamic benefits in the cylinder (if there are any left above lambda 1.5-ish) against the losses due to higher compression work. That then also depends on your choice of turbocharger and your MGU-H strategy.
I ran through the calculations some time ago. Increased boost pressure is fairly neutral, the extra compression work being cancelled by the extra turbine work available (at the higher PR and higher mass flow). That was for steady state turbine and compressor flows and isentropic efficiencies of 80%. Higher efficiencies favour increasing the PR and lower efficiencies the opposite.
I'd love to see these calculations.
All this talk is making me want to build a single cylinder TJI test engine.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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How would one feed the pre-chamber fuel if you're only allowed one injector. That's the tricky part, I'm just throwing stuff out there, there's the two anchor in between the main and pre-chamber. There's the main injector housing both the pre-chamber and main injector, there's the conventional injector that through clever head design creates the pre-chamber effect. Why not a design that borrows from all these concepts and creates something similar but different?

And we haven't even started talking about where the spark plug goes or how it's made. Or whether the pre-chamber has a way to heat the fuel, be it by heating element or a heat retaining material.
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gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
22 May 2017, 01:37
How would one feed the pre-chamber fuel if you're only allowed one injector. That's the tricky part, I'm just throwing stuff out there, there's the two anchor in between the main and pre-chamber. There's the main injector housing both the pre-chamber and main injector, there's the conventional injector that through clever head design creates the pre-chamber effect. Why not a design that borrows from all these concepts and creates something similar but different?

And we haven't even started talking about where the spark plug goes or how it's made. Or whether the pre-chamber has a way to heat the fuel, be it by heating element or a heat retaining material.
Air is flowing into the pre-chamber for most of the compression stroke - the mass in the pre-chamber increases by about 10 fold during compression. Any fuel droplets and vapour mixed in that air will be carried along with it.

Spark plug is in the middle of the pre-chamber as per Mahle TJI.
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:
22 May 2017, 01:37
How would one feed the pre-chamber fuel if you're only allowed one injector...
"One injector" - does not mean only one injection event/fixed fuel volume - per 720` 4T cycle..
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