Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[trinidefender]

To me the most logical way to heat the fuel would be a fuel/oil heat exchanger or a fuel/water(engine coolant) heat exchanger going by casual observation.

It seems to make sense because you will have oil lines running very close and heat has to be removed from the oil somehow. Of course the oil will still need other heat exchangers but why not use some of this heat energy to warm the fuel instead of trying to get rid of all of it through airflow.

Secondly if you use a heating coil or similar device then the energy has to come from somewhere....energy that could have been put into the MGU-K.

A third benefit is that it is sort of self regulating. On a track where there are very short periods of full throttle there is a lower mass of fuel/lap to heat and at the same time less heat energy would be put into the Oil. On a lap with a long period of full throttle then the mass of fuel/lap will be larger, more fuel being burned = more heat in the oil to heat the fuel.

For very precise fuel temperature control then I would imagine the spark plug itself may be heated but I see no reason why to not use oil or coolant to at least partially heat the fuel.

P.s. I believe wazari had previously mentioned something about heating the fuel using the injector on more than one occasion.

[gruntguru]

Maybe a hot ring made of platinum or iridium in the pre-chamber to help vaporize the fuel.

Catalytic materials like platinum would provide a great source for pre-ignition.

[PlatinumZealot]

Rather than me writing a long argument about indirect chambers. Let me point the technical people who are still viewing, to the work of Dr Dan Merritt [UK] and his lean burn technology. This is something I came across in 1988. If you take the time to read his notes, you will probably have a different view on the indirect chamber and what topology to select. Highly atomised fuel drops do not need to be spread out in the pre-chamber. In fact it is a disadvantage. My screen name was chosen to reflect my thoughts, about tumble and stratification. The latest Patents on the TJI principle look at intense swirl in a chamber that is very different to anything seen or suggested here. This also links into what might be a good main chamber topology - Excess air and keeping fuel away from cylinder walls. Merritt shows a method of creating a vortex swirl via a 'ramp shape', and the results. There was much discussion, back in the sensible days of the main thread, about stratification, and I think that a vortex injection from the pre-chamber is a better way to this end. The 'hose pipe' method seems intuitively wrong. The other issue is the problem of increased efficiency leading to lower exhaust temps and the effect on MGU-H/Turbo - change the pre-chamber/main chamber then affect downstream - reprogram and back to the beginning again. Thinking that just changing a few castings and off we go in a few weeks, is cloud cuckoo land for Honda or anybody.

Whilst the web link is substantially about lower emissions and improved fuel consumption, there are some lessons to be had.

https://www.pureburnengines.co.uk

Good read.

You know, your post was so "prosey" I just skipped over it. Totally ignored it. I only noticed it by another user's reaction to it. Not that I am important audience or anything, but I always suggest that users make use of a profile picture and also add some visual descriptions in the post so we can separate the wheat from the chaffe more easily. So many new posts in the thread each day I dont even care to read all of them anymore. Sensible or not, all the pictureless posters and their posts are just one grey blur. I can't be bothered to strain my eyes I just scroll through like my money clip.

Anyway great post. Glad I noticed it.

Posting the how it works section for others who want to get to the meat of it:

https://www.pureburnengines.co.uk/how-it-works

The design is not TJI for anyone wondering.. But i think it could very well provide similar benefits. It achieves low heat transfer by remote combustion in a sort of vortex chamber. Lean burn is also achieved.

I dont know how it would fit with four valves per cylinder but it should be possible.

[PlatinumZealot]

@ you all talking about fuel heating... Didn't we go over this in 2015?!!
The mamy ferrari and Honda telemtry shots showing all sort of engine data. Fuel temps.. Water temps.. Exhaust etc.. What i am saying is heated fuel was already confirmed. If I recall each engine bank has a heated fuel rail and the temps were really hot. Like 90C or something.

[Sasha]

Honda used Magneti Marelli injectors(Ferrari's supplier) during the pre-chamber single cylinder test but they was not used in the finish product.(reason.....either Ferrari didn't allow it or more to the fact that Honda likes to go around patents by designing their own)

I wonder if that could be one of the reasons it worked in the single cylinder test but not in the final product?

[etusch]

Honda used Magneti Marelli injectors(Ferrari's supplier) during the pre-chamber single cylinder test but they was not used in the finish product.(reason.....either Ferrari didn't allow it or more to the fact that Honda likes to go around patents by designing their own)

I wonder if that could be one of the reasons it worked in the single cylinder test but not in the final product?

İf the problem was that then they can just try replacing their product with mm injector to see it and problem could be easily solved. İf it is, they could use mm injector until their own design works properly. That was not hard job because they have single cylinder design ready for fitting mm injector. I don't think so.

In the other hand, may be they want to see the system mm built for a starting idea of Honda version, and using mm product to do their single cylinder work not waiting Honda version be prepared

[stevesingo]

Would the increase on fuel pressure from ambient to 500bar cause significant increase in fuel temperature?

[Singabule]

Honda used Magneti Marelli injectors(Ferrari's supplier) during the pre-chamber single cylinder test but they was not used in the finish product.(reason.....either Ferrari didn't allow it or more to the fact that Honda likes to go around patents by designing their own)

I wonder if that could be one of the reasons it worked in the single cylinder test but not in the final product?

Could be, because with upgrading injectors and intake, spain upgrade bought 16 additional horsepower as per Hasegawa quotation

[DiogoBrand]

I was doing some simple maths here, considering Vettel's 326km/h top speed and Alonso' 314, considering that top speed is proportional to the cube root of power and a best case scenario (McLaren running the same drag as Ferrari, which is unlikely), and the result is a 10,6% deficit. For a 950hp figure that would mean a 101hp deficit.
So Alonso's statement of "more than 50hp deficit" is still quite optimistic.

[etusch]

I was doing some simple maths here, considering Vettel's 326km/h top speed and Alonso' 314, considering that top speed is proportional to the cube root of power and a best case scenario (McLaren running the same drag as Ferrari, which is unlikely), and the result is a 10,6% deficit. For a 950hp figure that would mean a 101hp deficit.
So Alonso's statement of "more than 50hp deficit" is still quite optimistic.

What if the deficit is not because of ice but because of ers

[godlameroso]

Would the increase on fuel pressure from ambient to 500bar cause significant increase in fuel temperature?

I wonder if the fuel supply system is conventional in the sense that it uses both an in tank pump and a secondary rail pump? It would heat the fuel but it would cool back down once injected and it's pressure drops.

Too much heat and you get pump vapor lock. As is the case with injection timing and spray pattern, fuel heating also needs to be very precise.

[godlameroso]

I was doing some simple maths here, considering Vettel's 326km/h top speed and Alonso' 314, considering that top speed is proportional to the cube root of power and a best case scenario (McLaren running the same drag as Ferrari, which is unlikely), and the result is a 10,6% deficit. For a 950hp figure that would mean a 101hp deficit.
So Alonso's statement of "more than 50hp deficit" is still quite optimistic.

What if the deficit is not because of ice but because of ers

That's quite possible, use one of the public sims out there with f1 2017 mods and putt around without hybrid mode, just motor mode on the MGU-H and the lap times become similar to what the McLaren chassis is capable of. ~2 seconds off the pace.

[PlatinumZealot]

I was doing some simple maths here, considering Vettel's 326km/h top speed and Alonso' 314, considering that top speed is proportional to the cube root of power and a best case scenario (McLaren running the same drag as Ferrari, which is unlikely), and the result is a 10,6% deficit. For a 950hp figure that would mean a 101hp deficit.
So Alonso's statement of "more than 50hp deficit" is still quite optimistic.

What if the deficit is not because of ice but because of ers

It is definitely the ICE.

[SameSame]

Would the increase on fuel pressure from ambient to 500bar cause significant increase in fuel temperature?

To give you an idea of how difficult it is to raise the temperature of a liquid through increased pressure; isentropic compression of water from 1 bar to 500 bar will result in a temperature increase of less than a degree Celsius.

[etusch]

I was doing some simple maths here, considering Vettel's 326km/h top speed and Alonso' 314, considering that top speed is proportional to the cube root of power and a best case scenario (McLaren running the same drag as Ferrari, which is unlikely), and the result is a 10,6% deficit. For a 950hp figure that would mean a 101hp deficit.
So Alonso's statement of "more than 50hp deficit" is still quite optimistic.

What if the deficit is not because of ice but because of ers

It is definitely the ICE.

When we consider issues it may true but if we are talking about power and best speed, addressing only ice power is not / can't be true. If Honda PU can use 5 second less mgu-k power, engine has 160 bg less power for 5 sec. This is just an example. We can not say directly there is 100 bg deficit ice power side just looking max speeds