Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
McHonda
McHonda
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PhillipM wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 12:34
It could actually be yet another symptom of the vibration issue.
I think the intake and fuel upgrade has greatly reduced those issues now, they were said to be able to change gear as normal and overall driveability was much much better at Spain and Monaco.

I haven't read anything about vibration issues since to be honest so maybe it's been cured now so if it was harming the H then hopefully that's over now.

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Powerslide
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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guess honda missed out on indirect, direct injection or turbulent jet ignition. by the way, is the compressor spec sized or free?
speed

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Powerslide
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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McHonda wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 17:57
PhillipM wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 12:34
It could actually be yet another symptom of the vibration issue.
I think the intake and fuel upgrade has greatly reduced those issues now, they were said to be able to change gear as normal and overall driveability was much much better at Spain and Monaco.

I haven't read anything about vibration issues since to be honest so maybe it's been cured now so if it was harming the H then hopefully that's over now.
loving that nick, mchonda haha
speed

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MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 04:04
That is quite unexpected and very worrying. if I assume correctly, the bearings are floating bushings. That is the shaft then oil layer then floating bushing ring then oil then outer bearing... So to have damage there is quite a feat.. Probably some sort of oil delievery or cooling problem..?

Ferrari removes their turbochargers after two races on average so far... Do the rules allow servicing of the bearings without penalty? Maybe Honda has finally caught onto this trick and remove the mguh mid cycle to do some checks.
"If" they are using journal bearings (I don't believe they are) then it's fairly common for journal and / or thrust bearings in turbos to wear abnormally if they are either not up to the thrust load or are not getting enough cooling / oil flow.

But as far as I know they are running ceramic ball bearing cartridges.

It's entirely possible they are having issues because of the materials used as well.
Borg Warner has had a lot of problems with Titamium Aluminide on its EFR turbos for instance.

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MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Powerslide wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 01:12
guess honda missed out on indirect, direct injection or turbulent jet ignition. by the way, is the compressor spec sized or free?
The compressor size is free but the rpm is limited to 125,000 rpm which dictates somewhat the minimum compressor size you would use.

hurril
hurril
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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MrPotatoHead wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 01:23
Powerslide wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 01:12
guess honda missed out on indirect, direct injection or turbulent jet ignition. by the way, is the compressor spec sized or free?
The compressor size is free but the rpm is limited to 125,000 rpm which dictates somewhat the minimum compressor size you would use.
I think the RPM limit applies to the MGU-h and not the compressor-turbine axle.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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It is permitted, but I don't think anyone has tried a gearbox between turbo and MGUH.
je suis charlie

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MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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gruntguru wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 02:39
It is permitted, but I don't think anyone has tried a gearbox between turbo and MGUH.
Because there is nothing to gain by doing so.

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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 04:04
Do the rules allow servicing of the bearings without penalty?
Yes.

fellowhoodlums
fellowhoodlums
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Craigy wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 12:22
PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 04:04
Do the rules allow servicing of the bearings without penalty?
Yes.
However, you'd assume that it hasn't helped as it is still an issue.

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MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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fellowhoodlums wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 12:50
Craigy wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 12:22
PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 04:04
Do the rules allow servicing of the bearings without penalty?
Yes.
However, you'd assume that it hasn't helped as it is still an issue.
People are also assuming the problem is the bearings.

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diffuser
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Well they did say that they replaced mgu-h because it had a sticky point in the rotation. You'd think they would have serviced the bearings and put it back in. If they saw it was that.

The good news is they did say it was the first time they caught it before it was completely seized. Hopefully analysis will yield results.

Sasha
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Bearings not the problem.

GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Sasha wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 17:18
Bearings not the problem.
Looks like by Hasegawa words update is coming to Canada or race after that.

Is that the big update? Do you have the info?
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Muramassa Autosport

 

Monaco

=====================================
dotted parts are for Hasegawa quotes as well as Nakamura quotes (all Thursday where specified)
=====================================


Thursday
http://f1sokuho.mopi...399&tt=-1&at=15
2017年5月26日

(on the absence of Hasegawa, whose arrival at Monaco was delayed to Friday due to overseeing progress of development on upcoming PU upgrade) I cannot explain on it in detail, but regarding matters like how and to what extent the finalization work is progressing, applying it at which race is the best/right decision, etc, Hasegawa intends to check things by himself with his own eyes to determine what to do. (Nakamura)
--
Jenson doesn't need acclimatization run in particular, so basically he was conducting setup work from the beginning. At first the car balance was not so good for both cars, so in that sense he was struggling on some aspects. So It was not about any particular matter of Jenson, but seems it was taking time for him to find the car's overall direction. (Nakamura)
He drove for us for the first time in a long time, but he was saying "there's no problem in particular, also driveability is ok as well". (Nakamura)
But if he drove it in the season opener, his comment might have been different. (Nakamura)
--

On Wednesday Honda crews left the garage just before 11pm, right before the curfew kicks in
We have brought updates for software data-wise in various aspects, so we were spending time in making data related settings about that until late at night on Wednesday. (Nakamura)
We can work on the engine mapping itself at HRD Sakura, but environmental conditions for engine usage such as temperature zone are different, so you can optimize those stuffs only after actually arriving at the venue. Especially at Monaco, the rpm range that's not used in normal/regular/general tracks is used a lot, so we must work to improve the driveability for that particular rpm range. Moreover, besides the settings on the engine itself, we must make settings for electronics-related on energy management as well. (Nakamura)
Monaco GP has a holiday in Friday, but for us the volume of task increases in proportion to the amount of time available. (Nakamura)
[] []





Saturday
http://f1sokuho.mopi...490&tt=-1&at=15
2017年5月28日

(on JB's MGU-H)
After the FP2 session, our mechanics have found abnormality while checking the actual MGU-H unit by rotating it manually. It's not as bad as scorched/burnt bearing happened in Bahrain, but there was hesitation/discomfort/roughness in rotation, not any more than that. It was extremely subtle difference, so we pondered a lot what to do, whether exchange it or not, but it's a component that rotates 100k times per minute, so any slightest issue can cause fatal consequence, plus taking into account what has happened so far, eventually we decided to exchange it.
It was a kind of abnormality that's not indicated on telemetry, but can only be detected by mechanics. They had an option to use the 2nd unit of TC&MGU-H that was used only in Bahrain race (introduced after Bahrain Quali MGH-H bearing issue for the 1st unit, and got exchanged by 3rd and modified unit as soon as at Sochi), that way they can escape penalty which is painful esp at Monaco, but the 2nd unit is the component that has not received countermeasures against the MGU-H bearing issue encountered in Bahrain GP. So they decided to introduce 5th units despite the huge disadvantage of penalty. [info in the article]
(btw remember that Honda's MGU-H and TC are one integrated unit so that they have to exchange both at once)
We are sorry for Jenson about it. Car performance was very stable so we thought Q3 was possible, but after all Jenson is such great driver because he can display such performance despite the blank. Stoffel is on it this weekend, he is satisfied with car, so had it not been for the crash he would've been able to go much further, 6th or 7th was possibility.
[][]





Sunday
https://sportiva.shu...31/___split_12/
http://f1sokuho.mopi...567&tt=-1&at=15
2017年5月29日

Jenson had to change the floor, as a result of that, he had no option but to change its specification too, hence pit start.
Regarding Stoffel's car, it was a quite severe crash so components like suspension etc were broken quite badly, but monocoque itself was fine. We worried about gearbox the most, but it was fine as well. So was engine side too, reliability is flawless, so (laughs). There was no external damage. We were concerned about battery but as we took it down and checked, we found out it was fine too, so basically components on our side haven't been exchanged at all.
McLaren brought updated floor for Monaco, just one for each car. SV damaged his new floor in the Quali crash, so if they fitted prev spec floor to SV's car, he would have to start from the pit instead of 12th grid because it amounts to spec change. Therefore team chose to transfer JB's new floor to SV's car to avoid pit start for SV, making JB, who was supposed to be demoted to the last on the grid due to penalty anyway, serve the spec change penalty and start from the pit instead. [info in the article]

--
Setup has improved from Thursday to Saturday, the car reached good level, and in terms of competitiveness there was high possibility that we would've been able to score points, so it was such shame.
This time we wanted to score points no matter what. What's important is the mood that you finish the race properly and score points solidly, isn't it. Melbourne and China as well, if we had been able to run normally we would've scored points. But in reality we let all those chances slip. Performance wise we were competitive enough to score points, but we couldn't, it's truly painful to continue to have races like that.
Responsibility belongs to us, but the penalties placed on both drivers were painful. In terms of competitiveness, we had the speed enough to score points, so. However, chassis is evolving each and every race, and Vandoorne is saying "I can drive with confidence now" too. From now on, if power unit improvement goes smooth, we should be able to make quite good battle in many tracks. There is no doubt that engine power is one essential factor.
Next race at Canada is a power track, so with current state of ours, we will be forced to have quite tough fight. We are in the middle of seeking what we should/can do, like setting modification, exchanging components that are not bound by the (regulation) seal and so on, in order to gain performance however small it is
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."