Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[SameSame]

At 125,000 rpm you're talking about a hell of a seal, the frequency just from the shaft is at least 125,000Hz,...

More in the region of 2083 Hz...

Edit: Brainfade

[SameSame]

At 125,000 rpm you're talking about a hell of a seal, the frequency just from the shaft is at least 125,000Hz,...

More in the region of 2083 Hz...

Edit: Brainfade

[godlameroso]

At 125,000 rpm you're talking about a hell of a seal, the frequency just from the shaft is at least 125,000Hz,...

More in the region of 2083 Hz...

Edit: Brainfade

Right, right sorry forgot about that times 60.

[MrPotatoHead]

The fine balance between friction (plus the heat it brings) and sealing is the biggest problem faced when it comes to the seals.

But turbo seals aren't anything new.
What's new is the length of the shaft and the forces induced by the baby electric motor in the middle.

[noname]

What's new is the length of the shaft and the forces induced by the baby electric motor in the middle.

Supercritical rotors are anything new. You can even find them in regular turbos, ones that cost few tens EUR/USD. Same with high speed, high power density electric machines.

No simple feat, but there are quite a few people knowing how to deal with this. Honda having such problems in 2017 is plain embarrassing.

[Craigy]

What's new is the length of the shaft and the forces induced by the baby electric motor in the middle.

Supercritical rotors are anything new. You can even find them in regular turbos, ones that cost few tens EUR/USD. Same with high speed, high power density electric machines.

No simple feat, but there are quite a few people knowing how to deal with this. Honda having such problems in 2017 is plain embarrassing.

The last time we talked about this on this thread was almost exactly a year ago (June 2016) and I was writing exactly the same thing then.
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If Honda are planning on carrying out a layout change why would they not go for the Mercedes model?

Engineering a shaft that long which can rev safely to 125,000 rpm repeatedly in the heat/vibration/G-loading environment of an F1 engine with the compressor at one end and the turbine at the other, with an MGU-H and probably clutching in the middle without whirl is not an easy task. It might not be possible in the time Honda have (or have had) with the engineering resources available to them. There are resonance/damping/vibration/critical speed which are harder to solve than iterative solving to get a working solution can cope with in a sensible timeframe.

Of course this is only part of the issue. It would also mean a total revision of the McLaren approach to chassis design in order to accommodate not only a front-mounted compressor but also the assorted cooling and intercooling solutions.

I'm not saying they can't do it, or that they won't. I just think that with the time and resources they have, it's an unlikely thing to try for next year.

In my opinion, F1's PU era isn't just about building excellent PUs - it's also about building a responsive PU design and development organisation.
Honda were up against teams that have had these bleeding-edge development teams for decades - organisations that can cope with the demands of F1 and rapidly moving technological change - so it's not a big surprise that they are struggling now.

[noname]

In my opinion, F1's PU era isn't just about building excellent PUs - it's also about building a responsive PU design and development organisation.
Honda were up against teams that have had these bleeding-edge development teams for decades - organisations that can cope with the demands of F1 and rapidly moving technological change - so it's not a big surprise that they are struggling now.

I could not say it better. That's Honda's biggest problem, and that's why Mercedes was so damn good over the last 3 years.

[etusch]

From Amus with help of google translate;

Doch nach Informationen von auto motor und sport wäre es ein Wunder, wenn die Japaner die Probleme vom Prüfstand noch vor dem Rennen in Montreal lösen. Die neue Ausbaustufe sollte endlich die Power bringen, mit der Honda in diese Saison starten wollte. Also ungefähr Renault-Niveau. „Ich glaube es erst, wenn ich es auf der Rennstrecke sehe“, bremst Boullier.

Honda schweigt sich darüber aus, warum jetzt plötzlich alles schiefläuft, was lange so positiv aussah. Der Sechszylinder war im Bereich der Zylinderköpfe und der Verbrennung völlig neu konzipiert worden. Der Fahrerlagerfunk meldet, dass die guten Ergebnisse im Einzylinder-Versuch nicht vollständig auf den Sechszylinder übertragen werden konnten. Daran wird jetzt repariert.

But according to information from auto motor and sport, it would be a miracle if the Japanese solve the problems from the test before the race in Montreal. The new version should finally bring the power with which Honda wanted to start this season. So about Renault-level. "I think it's only when I see it on the track," Boullier says.

Honda is silent about why suddenly everything that has been so positive for a long time has come to a head. The six-cylinder had been completely redesigned in the area of the cylinder heads and combustion. The driver's radio reports that the good results in the single cylinder test could not be transferred completely to the six-cylinder engine. This is now being repaired.

[Thunder]

"Fahrerlagerfunk" is better translated to "Paddock Talk". Just to avoid confusion.

[GoranF1]

"Fahrerlagerfunk" is better translated to "Paddock Talk". Just to avoid confusion.

I dont get the "drivers radio report" part ?

[Thunder]

That's exactly the Part is meant. "Drivers Radio Report" is something google Translate spits out. The Correct Term would be Paddock Talk.

[PlatinumZealot]

Nothing new for us here at F1Tech.

The big questions are do they run it in Canada? And should they run it in Canada?

[MrPotatoHead]

What's new is the length of the shaft and the forces induced by the baby electric motor in the middle.

Supercritical rotors are anything new. You can even find them in regular turbos, ones that cost few tens EUR/USD. Same with high speed, high power density electric machines.

No simple feat, but there are quite a few people knowing how to deal with this. Honda having such problems in 2017 is plain embarrassing.

The last time we talked about this on this thread was almost exactly a year ago (June 2016) and I was writing exactly the same thing then.
-->

If Honda are planning on carrying out a layout change why would they not go for the Mercedes model?

Engineering a shaft that long which can rev safely to 125,000 rpm repeatedly in the heat/vibration/G-loading environment of an F1 engine with the compressor at one end and the turbine at the other, with an MGU-H and probably clutching in the middle without whirl is not an easy task. It might not be possible in the time Honda have (or have had) with the engineering resources available to them. There are resonance/damping/vibration/critical speed which are harder to solve than iterative solving to get a working solution can cope with in a sensible timeframe.

Of course this is only part of the issue. It would also mean a total revision of the McLaren approach to chassis design in order to accommodate not only a front-mounted compressor but also the assorted cooling and intercooling solutions.

I'm not saying they can't do it, or that they won't. I just think that with the time and resources they have, it's an unlikely thing to try for next year.

In my opinion, F1's PU era isn't just about building excellent PUs - it's also about building a responsive PU design and development organisation.
Honda were up against teams that have had these bleeding-edge development teams for decades - organisations that can cope with the demands of F1 and rapidly moving technological change - so it's not a big surprise that they are struggling now.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands the physics involved

[toraabe]

I also think because of temperature change, the shaft has to expand and shrink without putting load on any part in that direction. I am sure that is has some sort of vibration damper on it, but the MGU-H will do that job.You will also have "forbidden" rpm's that you have to avoid..... and so on ....

[PlatinumZealot]

The shaft works on the test bench and it works in the races. The shaft is strong enough and expansions is well within the design one can easily guess. It is other secondary effects and auxiliary items around the shaft that are giving problems that Honda has no live means of detecting. These sort of problems are ones where you disassemble the part, do your investigation, then make a few calculated changes and hit the test bench again.