Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[diffuser]

What I don't get is if there was never an update scheduled for Canada, why is McLaren reacting like there was? Certainly if Wasari knew, McLaren must have.... Someone needs to sit down with Hasegawa and have a conversation about "setting expectations" with the world and especially McLaren.

Unless this is some sort of dance for the sponsers.

Check out muramasa translated interviews from hasagawa, in this thread some pages ago he never said Canada, he said they would bring it when they could asap, and Canada was an opportunity but it didnt come together, which he stated clearly many many times. I think he is erring on the side of caution, what use is it to bring the new spec, if it a) doesnt deliver power, or b) blows up due to bad reliability or c) both.. this is a wiser choice to hold off, more time is more time, even if c) still happens in azerbijian there was time to perform due diligence.

Doesn't really matter what he said right...McLaren still had the impression there was one.

[etusch]

Friday Press Conference (pitpass)

Hasegawa-san, first of all, can you clear up the situation regarding the engine update. I think it was originally scheduled for this Canadian Grand Prix weekend. What's the status?
Yusuke Hasegawa: Actually, we don't promise normally, although of course every time I try to update the engine as soon as possible, so every time we are ready, we will introduce it. Unfortunately, it has not happened here. So, still we are trying hard in Japan, and so as soon as it is ready, we will introduce it.
Any prospect in the next race or two or is it too early to day?
YH: Too early to say. So, I don't give up but I can't promise.
You will have seen the Zak Brown interview with Reuters this week. What is Honda's response to the points he made?
YH: I don't respond. Yeah, of course we are talking together, even this morning. It is obvious we are frustrated with the current situation and we are disappointing with our team result, so there is no wonder there are some complaining comments - but the things we can do is try our very best for the team, and we are still aiming to go the same direction.

[MrPotatoHead]

What is the gap now vs the end of last season?

And it is definitely not a simple thing to catch up to Mercedes.

Last year Alonso was 1.52 off pole, he was 1.3sec off RAI in FP2, if the gap is maintained they're essentially .2 closer to the lead as they were last year.

My impression is that Honda are actually performing better than this time last year.
But they are being let down by reliability.
Let's hope Alonso can have a good rest of the weekend and score some points!

[MrPotatoHead]

Yeah, best be careful with bringing up 'Honda culture' - in this thread Mr P-H..
I mentioned it earlier, & was censured for being 'racist' ( & off topic, technically - to boot, too!)..

'The Honda Way' is of course, a noted fact, & does project fully into their facets of motorsports competition..
( I also note that Honda has a long history of top-class FIM racing, with a similar 'breakthrough or break' - approach)..

My comments were not at all meant in a racist manor and not even as an insult.
It just tends to be how their culture is.

[j.yank]

I wouldn't say that longer split turbo has marginal benefits. This affects the cooling, the mass balance of the car, and the potential size of the compressor. What we see this year as Ferrari leveling Mercedes is more due to their successful work with the tires, not because they have more powerful or drivable PU.

The affect on the air from heat transfer is most likely minuscule compared to the heat added through the compression process. You should note that Ferrari's cooling package is more compact.

The envelope of the engine is defined in the rules, as are the mounting faces for the chassis and gearbox. I don't see the front mounted compressor being of great advantage in mass balance. In fact, the front mounted compressor probably pushes the engine back further when compared to the back of the cockpit. And it makes the induction air follow a tortuous path to get to the compressor eye.

Going bigger on the compressor is most likely not necessary at this stage. Ferrari and Renault both have big enough compressors.

Ferrari may not be more powerful than the Mercedes, but it is very much a match in race mode, if not the qualifying/overtaking mode.

If Mercedes split turbo layout doesn't make any difference, why they were so dominant for three years in a row?

Can you elaborate why do you think that the temperature of the inlet air in compressor is with minuscule significance to the temperature of compression process itself?

About the position of the compressor: there were number of article that claimed just opposite of what you say - the path is tortuous exactly when the compressor is behind the engine block. As about the mass balance, the name "split" speaks for itself - when you split the mass on both sides of a block you are getting better overall center of gravity than if you put the additional mass only on one of the sides.

[ringo]

COG makes a difference but isnt a performance differentiator this year. As we have seen; the Wo8 and other merc powered cars aren't being lauded for exceptional chassis dynamics.
So COG somewhat is peripheral benefit when we compare the typical layout against the split turbo.

Considering temperature now, it's not really such a big deal. You have cooling systems on the turbo and also insulation to manage that. The mercedes might need less of these, but the reduction in heat input into the compressed air in the compressor housing isn't a performance differentiator.

Mercedes main advantage is in their combustion, energy recovery and reliability.
Ferrari has done well to match that this year. There is nothing that i have seen over the past 6 races to suggest that the ferrari engine is not just as good as the mercedes. Ferrari is matching them everywhere.

Honda now have issues with those three things listed, combustion, recovery and reliability.

[MrPotatoHead]

I wouldn't say that longer split turbo has marginal benefits. This affects the cooling, the mass balance of the car, and the potential size of the compressor. What we see this year as Ferrari leveling Mercedes is more due to their successful work with the tires, not because they have more powerful or drivable PU.

The affect on the air from heat transfer is most likely minuscule compared to the heat added through the compression process. You should note that Ferrari's cooling package is more compact.

The envelope of the engine is defined in the rules, as are the mounting faces for the chassis and gearbox. I don't see the front mounted compressor being of great advantage in mass balance. In fact, the front mounted compressor probably pushes the engine back further when compared to the back of the cockpit. And it makes the induction air follow a tortuous path to get to the compressor eye.

Going bigger on the compressor is most likely not necessary at this stage. Ferrari and Renault both have big enough compressors.

Ferrari may not be more powerful than the Mercedes, but it is very much a match in race mode, if not the qualifying/overtaking mode.

If Mercedes split turbo layout doesn't make any difference, why they were so dominant for three years in a row?

Can you elaborate why do you think that the temperature of the inlet air in compressor is with minuscule significance to the temperature of compression process itself?

About the position of the compressor: there were number of article that claimed just opposite of what you say - the path is tortuous exactly when the compressor is behind the engine block. As about the mass balance, the name "split" speaks for itself - when you split the mass on both sides of a block you are getting better overall center of gravity than if you put the additional mass only on one of the sides.

He's 100% right.
The benefit to the split turbo is packaging not performance.
And 5 minutes into WOT racing everything connected to the engine and turbo will be equally heat soaked.
A red herring at its finest.

[restless]

Do we know why Honda abandoned their "first" engine concept?!
It was working on 1cyl tests, how is it possible to claim "unfixable" in 6cyl variant?
how will they know that other variants tested on 1cyl will be better?!

[shingles]

Do we know why Honda abandoned their "first" engine concept?!
It was working on 1cyl tests, how is it possible to claim "unfixable" in 6cyl variant?
how will they know that other variants tested on 1cyl will be better?!

And that is probably why it's taking time. They build another 1 cylinder model, test it, then build a 6 cylinder model, test it... adjust and test, rinse and repeat. Clearly it would have been determined that it's easier to just start over then try to fix it. It's not like Honda hasn't build engines before. There's a methodology here (even if people on the forums and media want to suggest otherwise).

[j.yank]

Do we know why Honda abandoned their "first" engine concept?!
It was working on 1cyl tests, how is it possible to claim "unfixable" in 6cyl variant?
how will they know that other variants tested on 1cyl will be better?!

I think because of resonance they cannot operate at the optimal RPM and maybe this is related to the design of their combustion process. If someone knows for sure what is the reason he will get immediately a job in Honda

[j.yank]

COG makes a difference but isnt a performance differentiator this year. As we have seen; the Wo8 and other merc powered cars aren't being lauded for exceptional chassis dynamics.
So COG somewhat is peripheral benefit when we compare the typical layout against the split turbo.

Considering temperature now, it's not really such a big deal. You have cooling systems on the turbo and also insulation to manage that. The mercedes might need less of these, but the reduction in heat input into the compressed air in the compressor housing isn't a performance differentiator.

Mercedes main advantage is in their combustion, energy recovery and reliability.
Ferrari has done well to match that this year. There is nothing that i have seen over the past 6 races to suggest that the ferrari engine is not just as good as the mercedes. Ferrari is matching them everywhere.

Honda now have issues with those three things listed, combustion, recovery and reliability.

If COG isn't a factor then I don't think that Honda would have invested such efforts making their COG as low as possible. IMO their performance now with this mediocre PU is due exactly of their better COG which gives them possibility to be maybe the best chassis entering the corners. In P3 today in the first sector they were almost equal to Mercedes and Ferrari, and equal to RedBul. This can be achieved only with very good mass balance, and you cannot get this without good COG.

Yes, the combustion is a key but in my opinion Ferrari is gaining with their chassis now, not with PU. Somehow their interpretation of the new rules are better than Mercedes. Explanations of Hamilton speak about this, too.

[wuzak]

If Mercedes split turbo layout doesn't make any difference, why they were so dominant for three years in a row?

Better combustion design.
Better ERS utilization.
Better engine all around, really.
Better chassis (certainly compared to their closest engine challenger - Ferrari in 2015 and 2016).

Can you elaborate why do you think that the temperature of the inlet air in compressor is with minuscule significance to the temperature of compression process itself?

The air going through the compressor is there only for a short time so very little time to have heat gain. And the temperature gain in the compressor is >>100°C from compression alone.

And it is not like the turbos that Ferrari and Renault use have the turbine in direct contact with the compressor. There is a gap between them, small as it may be, which limits heat transfer.

About the position of the compressor: there were number of article that claimed just opposite of what you say - the path is tortuous exactly when the compressor is behind the engine block. As about the mass balance, the name "split" speaks for itself - when you split the mass on both sides of a block you are getting better overall center of gravity than if you put the additional mass only on one of the sides.

The front mounted compressors have two ~90° bends in them to go from the roll hoop intake to the compressor intake.

The rear mounted compressor has a straighter run from the front to the compressor intake, less severe bends.

[wuzak]

COG makes a difference but isnt a performance differentiator this year. As we have seen; the Wo8 and other merc powered cars aren't being lauded for exceptional chassis dynamics.
So COG somewhat is peripheral benefit when we compare the typical layout against the split turbo.

Considering temperature now, it's not really such a big deal. You have cooling systems on the turbo and also insulation to manage that. The mercedes might need less of these, but the reduction in heat input into the compressed air in the compressor housing isn't a performance differentiator.

Mercedes main advantage is in their combustion, energy recovery and reliability.
Ferrari has done well to match that this year. There is nothing that i have seen over the past 6 races to suggest that the ferrari engine is not just as good as the mercedes. Ferrari is matching them everywhere.

Honda now have issues with those three things listed, combustion, recovery and reliability.

If COG isn't a factor then I don't think that Honda would have invested such efforts making their COG as low as possible. IMO their performance now with this mediocre PU is due exactly of their better COG which gives them possibility to be maybe the best chassis entering the corners. In P3 today in the first sector they were almost equal to Mercedes and Ferrari, and equal to RedBul. This can be achieved only with very good mass balance, and you cannot get this without good COG.

Yes, the combustion is a key but in my opinion Ferrari is gaining with their chassis now, not with PU. Somehow their interpretation of the new rules are better than Mercedes. Explanations of Hamilton speak about this, too.

The CoG height is limited by the regulations.

I doubt there is much of an advantage there compared to the other manufacturers.

[wuzak]

Yes, the combustion is a key but in my opinion Ferrari is gaining with their chassis now, not with PU. Somehow their interpretation of the new rules are better than Mercedes. Explanations of Hamilton speak about this, too.

Yes, they have gained with the chassis.

But they wouldn't be that close if they weren't right there with Mercedes if their engine wasn't pretty close.

[godlameroso]

Do we know why Honda abandoned their "first" engine concept?!
It was working on 1cyl tests, how is it possible to claim "unfixable" in 6cyl variant?
how will they know that other variants tested on 1cyl will be better?!

I think because of resonance they cannot operate at the optimal RPM and maybe this is related to the design of their combustion process. If someone knows for sure what is the reason he will get immediately a job in Honda

If resonance is tuned to the shape of the pre-chamber it could be interfering with the integrity of the flame jets.