2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[SameSame]

McLaren never had the worst chassis on the grid. Honda has the worst PU on the grid. Therefore they have been letting McLaren down in comparison to the chassis and they must take more blame.

2013, 2014, 2015 ? Remember those numbers ?

I clearly remember the 2015 season with Honda. They probably had better reliability then than they have now. As for 2013 and 2014, they were a long way up the grid than they are now.

So yes, I do remember the numbers.

[SameSame]

As bad as Honda is in relation to peak power/consumption, how can they be sure that Mercedes engine would flatter the chassis in the same way as Honda is? Is it as tight, light and with equal or better COG? If not, can they calculate in the difference and how would that affect the S1 and S2 times?

I know McLaren has done the better (very good indeed) job this year, but I think some credit on that part should be given to Honda too.

They are talking very rude. Producing this kind of PU is much harder than making chassis and Mclaren couldn't do a winning chassis for a long time that gives Honda still a few years of tolerance if we give both side same amount of time

McLaren never had the worst chassis on the grid. Honda has the worst PU on the grid. Therefore they have been letting McLaren down in comparison to the chassis and they must take more blame.

2013, 2014, 2015 ? Remember those numbers ?

Lol. But still you wouldn't say they had the worst chassis of the whole grid.

What is your point? İf it is better than manor still it is not worst chassis ? Last year there not that much power deficit against Renault. Could they make podiums ?
I just want to say that they have to speak like team and make emphaty to Honda. They are talking as if someone mandated them Honda and they are not happy with it.

My point is simple, they are letting McLaren down. Consider these two points:

1. Put any PU in the McLaren and they will perform better.
2. Put the Honda PU in any other car and they will perform worse.

Last years argument is fast becoming moot due to the massive regulation change, plus the fact that this year they are consistently better on less power sensitive tracks.

And yes, if they were better than Manor they still wouldn't be the worst chassis on the grid; just as Renault being slightly better than Honda doesn't make them the worst PU either. Honda are the worst PU, by a long shot. Performance and reliability wise, as was evident yet again in Montreal. Stroll breezed past Alonso as if he was standing still despite locking up in the hairpin leading to the straight.

[Sayeman]

Best thing for Honda now would be to let Mclaren go, start fresh with Sauber. There will much less pressure and they will be able to improve the PU in peace. Considering how Red-bull and Renault doesn't get along, They could supply engines to Red-bull in the future if they manage to improve it. Honda and Red-bull already has a good relationship in WSBK and Motogp.

[shryr]

Humiliating. I am at a loss for words. And I say all this as a Honda fan.

There isn't a single positive thing that can be said of Honda's PU after today's performance. It is woefully under-powered, extremely thirsty and above all hopelessly unreliable. It was painful to watch all the other cars just breeze past the McLarens on the straights without breaking a sweat. Poor Nando and Vandoorne were sitting ducks waiting to picked off by whoever got within 100 meters of them.

The BIG update, that we have all been waiting for for the past 3 years now, if it ever arrives, will have to be nothing short of a miracle for McLaren to score a point this season. Hasegawa's interviews don't inspire much confidence either. I am more inclined to believe Zak Brown's description of Honda's situation than the empty promises Honda has been selling, not just to McLaren, but also their fans. It does seem that they are genuinely clueless are hoping against hope for something to work.

[diffuser]

I think it is time to put away our Honda knives and save them for the next spec.

No point in repeating same old "Same old".

It is what is till the next spec.

Then we'll reevaluate.

We've been bitchin and moanin since march about this spec.

[Squid]

OK, let's talk about perspective and expectations. This is Honda's third year back in F1 after a 7 year break from the sport. They didn't stay as a supplier like Renault did. They broke off from F1 completely.

2015 was a bad year, but I don't think anyone has any right to have expected any better, especially since it was earlier than Honda wanted and it was a new engine formula. 2016 was a notable improvement, both in terms of reliability and power, with McLaren being able to consistently fight in the midfield. Again, I wouldn't expect much more from Honda being only their second year. Consider too that the token system was in play all this time.

So my question is: What exactly did people expect? I certainly wasn't expecting Honda to be able to fight with Mercedes and Ferrari within 3 years, so 2017 is the first year where things fell outside my expectations, with Honda somehow going backwards on their PU.

What I mean to say by all this is: Shouldn't McLaren at least wait until 2018 to see if 2017 was a fluke or actually the start of a trend? Because going back to Mercedes means settling for a podium here and there, but no championships. As long as Mercedes stays in F1 as a factory team, no customer of theirs will ever win the championship. Hell, no customer of theirs have won as much as a single Grand Prix since 2012.

[etusch]

Renault is not top top team now but I think they will. Their engine is very good that Ricci could save his position against FI cars.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I think it is time to put away our Honda knives and save them for the next spec.

No point in repeating same old "Same old".

It is what is till the next spec.

Then we'll reevaluate.

We've been bitchin and moanin since march about this spec.

Are they making a Version 2.X or a version 3.0? Is there any indication as to how much different the new "spec" will be?

[bill shoe]

Honda seems content to use real car-company engineers to produce their F1 powertrains. Doesn't seem to give hope of being competitive, but I respect their decision to use F1 as a genuine engineer-training exercise rather than an abstract marketing exercise based in England with no relationship to their road cars.

McLaren has choice of two difficult paths:
1. Stay with Honda and hope the powertrain will at some point deliver a competitive advantage so they can compete for wins. This is low-probability but it does offer the slim chance of a direct-path to the traditional McLaren metric of success which is wins and championships.
2. Ditch Honda, become a customer of some other engine manufacturer, and immediately accept becoming another Williams (a team with winning pedigree but no immediate prospect of breaking out of the midfield). They will try to create a new long-term path from midfield customer team to world champions.

[diffuser]

I think it is time to put away our Honda knives and save them for the next spec.

No point in repeating same old "Same old".

It is what is till the next spec.

Then we'll reevaluate.

We've been bitchin and moanin since march about this spec.

Are they making a Version 2.X or a version 3.0? Is there any indication as to how much different the new "spec" will be?

Wazari said the whole top of the pu is new. Every but the block, No trebble.

[ZakB]

I think it is time to put away our Honda knives and save them for the next spec.

No point in repeating same old "Same old".

It is what is till the next spec.

Then we'll reevaluate.

We've been bitchin and moanin since march about this spec.

Are they making a Version 2.X or a version 3.0? Is there any indication as to how much different the new "spec" will be?

Wazari said the whole top of the pu is new. Every but the block, No trebble.

That should worry everyone, this years pu was new as well, just like the 2015 one. It will probably be a new mess, feel sorry for Hasegawa, seems like a nice guy. I still hope it will be a big improvement, although I wouldn't put my money on it.

[ZakB]

I think beating a works team with the same engine was valid in the past. Now engines are too complex and the work team can always have the engine advantage just by choosing not to share their ECU management code. There is huge lap time in the software and the engine manufacturer can release different versions to the clients. So basically if McLaren was fighting with merc with merc engine I am sure they would have way worse management software. Also the integration of these huge complex PU are very important and the works team will always have the edge on that as well

This is banned by the FIA is it not. But surely the top engineering teams would see any significant built in inefficient modes to limit them and either complain or write there own code. Mercedes might say it's against there license to use in signed code but in practice that would mean unlocking the engine properly so they wouldn't

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No McLaren engineer will ever get to see Mercedes code. Also they can send different codes. Heck nowadays they can even have the upgrade version of an engine ready just a few GP's later.

I really don't think Findia and williams can extract the same of merc PU as Merc can. The two main reasons for that are probably the agressive code maps and the integration with the rest of the car.
I bet they can't even go with a low cooling setup as aggressive as mercedes cause mercedes wouldn't want to risk the publicity of their PU's blowing.

If you think about it there are always more problems with factory Merc PU than with the clients. I would say it's because they ran more aggressive modes and cooling

Sorry, but Williams and Force India are both small teams compared to McLaren. They don't have the same resources and with the same engine McLaren should be miles ahead of them. I'm not saying they will beat Mercedes, but they will certainly be closer than those two.

[Lucky]

https://twitter.com/gsep123/status/874113436602568704

[marmer]

OK, let's talk about perspective and expectations. This is Honda's third year back in F1 after a 7 year break from the sport. They didn't stay as a supplier like Renault did. They broke off from F1 completely.

2015 was a bad year, but I don't think anyone has any right to have expected any better, especially since it was earlier than Honda wanted and it was a new engine formula. 2016 was a notable improvement, both in terms of reliability and power, with McLaren being able to consistently fight in the midfield. Again, I wouldn't expect much more from Honda being only their second year. Consider too that the token system was in play all this time.

So my question is: What exactly did people expect? I certainly wasn't expecting Honda to be able to fight with Mercedes and Ferrari within 3 years, so 2017 is the first year where things fell outside my expectations, with Honda somehow going backwards on their PU.

What I mean to say by all this is: Shouldn't McLaren at least wait until 2018 to see if 2017 was a fluke or actually the start of a trend? Because going back to Mercedes means settling for a podium here and there, but no championships. As long as Mercedes stays in F1 as a factory team, no customer of theirs will ever win the championship. Hell, no customer of theirs have won as much as a single Grand Prix since 2012.

you make some valid points about what should be expected by Honda. but in the 3rd year they seem to have taken a step backwards compared to 2016. they cannot finish races and have extremely high fuel consumption while still lacking overall power. all engines have won races now in this spec apart from Honda and the Renault engine that won in the 1st season was always being moaned about as being slow.

Renault and Ferrari both started a long way from Mercedes in the 3rd year (last season) they were not far away and similar on fuel and had ok reliability just down on power. this year they are in the small ball park if a little power is still missing. Honda on the other hand are still worse than Renault and Ferrari season 1

[Vasconia]

Renault is not top top team now but I think they will. Their engine is very good that Ricci could save his position against FI cars.

Its clearly better and I am sure that the expected update will give them much more power. I can´t say the same with Honda though I would like to see it.

This PU is pure sh*t, even with much less power they can finisht most of the races. No additional discussion or explanations are needed, there are no excuses to justify this. They are lost, and this is the wors thing above all.