Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

At this point, it doesn't matter if they will ultimatelly get it working, as I cannot, I simply cannot, support a manufacturer that wastes three seasons in a row punching a car until it works. Honda is doing this:

Is that Alonso?

[etusch]

I tried to figure out where the supposed 80-100 hp deficit of Maclaren-Honda to Mercedes is coming from. It seems that this is based on standard ET 1/4 mile Horse Power calculators that you can find on internet. You can get the speed and time for passing 1/4 mile from the onboard qualification laps of Alonso and Hamilton from here https://youtu.be/uCP79ZKMMdI and here https://youtu.be/yx6BbFTNyy0 . Look at the timing from the start of the final straight to the red lights on left that are slightly before the middle of the straight (if you look on Google Earth this is roughly 1/4 mile). However, you need a chronometer to get more precise timing. In this way, you see some very strange results. The Alonso time deficit is about 0.3 sec but surprisingly he is faster with about 10 km/h (note that this is 1/4 mile, not the full length of the straight). In this case, the only way the calculator could give 80-100 hp deficit is Maclaren-Honda to be about 10 kg lighter than Mercedes. This is very interesting. This means that Maclaren-Honda have better initial speed on the straights but don't have enough power to maintain this speed to the end or even to middle of the straight. Also, this means that Maclaren-Honda have very, very light car comparing to other cars, and Hasegava comments on this are in fact true (probably this also explains why they are so good in the corners). IMO if they successfully resolve the combustion and vibration problems in order to maintain this speed and keep the same weight of the car, with the upcoming update they suddenly could be ahead of the rest. I don't think that this is impossible.

İf their one cylinder job were worked we were talking about very different things. I hope they will come up with 2016 merc level or something close

[ZakB]

Where did I mention traction and braking? I just stated a true fact: from mid straight the Honda PU is like a parachute behind the car.

It was clear when Stroll came out of the hairpin 30-40 meters behind and was in front of Alonso mid straight. And Stroll had used tyres against Fernando's fresh SS.

I'd like to add to that, that Stroll couldn't manage to drive away from Alonso in anyway after using DRS to pass him. Alonso stayed within one second of Stroll for many laps. He could use DRS to keep up on the straights, but was in no way able to pass the Williams, while clearly being much faster in the corners.

I remeber looking at the time screen...Alonso was playing whit Stroll...he was 3 sec behind then in less than a lap the gap was 0.7....but he couldnt pass.

Don't forget that the Honda uses much more fuel than the others. They are running "embarrassing power modes" all the time.

[godlameroso]

If they run leaner what happens, melted pistons?

[Craigy]

If they run leaner what happens?

Bang. Clunk. Agh.

[godlameroso]

If they run leaner what happens?

Bang. Clunk. Agh.

Here's what I think, Alonso is just pushing everything, if it breaks it doesn't bother him because he's not even in the points. Understanding what fails can go a long way to making it better.

[nzjrs]

If they run leaner what happens?

Bang. Clunk. Agh.

Here's what I think, Alonso is just pushing everything, if it breaks it doesn't bother him because he's not even in the points. Understanding what fails can go a long way to making it better.

I thought the same. It would go some way towards explaining the gap to Stoffel (different engine modes)

[marvin78]

It's very likely true. Alonso always want's to look good. Everybody thinks, he is a god, because he himself says so and he uses ridiculous engine modes. Could be.

[kasio]

I tried to figure out where the supposed 80-100 hp deficit of Maclaren-Honda to Mercedes is coming from. It seems that this is based on standard ET 1/4 mile Horse Power calculators that you can find on internet. You can get the speed and time for passing 1/4 mile from the onboard qualification laps of Alonso and Hamilton from here https://youtu.be/uCP79ZKMMdI and here https://youtu.be/yx6BbFTNyy0 . Look at the timing from the start of the final straight to the red lights on left that are slightly before the middle of the straight (if you look on Google Earth this is roughly 1/4 mile). However, you need a chronometer to get more precise timing. In this way, you see some very strange results. The Alonso time deficit is about 0.3 sec but surprisingly he is faster with about 10 km/h (note that this is 1/4 mile, not the full length of the straight). In this case, the only way the calculator could give 80-100 hp deficit is Maclaren-Honda to be about 10 kg lighter than Mercedes. This is very interesting. This means that Maclaren-Honda have better initial speed on the straights but don't have enough power to maintain this speed to the end or even to middle of the straight. Also, this means that Maclaren-Honda have very, very light car comparing to other cars, and Hasegava comments on this are in fact true (probably this also explains why they are so good in the corners). IMO if they successfully resolve the combustion and vibration problems in order to maintain this speed and keep the same weight of the car, with the upcoming update they suddenly could be ahead of the rest. I don't think that this is impossible.

Exit speed from last corner is not 0. it would explain why final speed is higher on mclaren compared to Merc even with time lost. Also i remember noticing comparison between merc and ferrari. Merc was setup for more strightline speed, ferrari was a bit more downforce for Corners.
p.s. i did not find where alaonso has higher speed on start/finish stright.

[kasio]

I'd like to add to that, that Stroll couldn't manage to drive away from Alonso in anyway after using DRS to pass him. Alonso stayed within one second of Stroll for many laps. He could use DRS to keep up on the straights, but was in no way able to pass the Williams, while clearly being much faster in the corners.

I remeber looking at the time screen...Alonso was playing whit Stroll...he was 3 sec behind then in less than a lap the gap was 0.7....but he couldnt pass.

Don't forget that the Honda uses much more fuel than the others. They are running "embarrassing power modes" all the time.

fuelsaving was made at the end of first stint. he lost ability to pit before kvyat and hulkenberg because of that. even lost positions to them.

[Andres125sx]

If they run leaner what happens?

Bang. Clunk. Agh.

Here's what I think, Alonso is just pushing everything, if it breaks it doesn't bother him because he's not even in the points. Understanding what fails can go a long way to making it better.

I think PU modes are determined by engineers, not by drivers. If so, are you saying Alonso ignore his engineers and always use a more aggressive mapping than he´s told to?

[Thunder]

Welp, not gonna say i'm surprised....

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... no-918068/

[harjan]

Ok, I know people in here are really supportive of Honda and that's good to see. But starting to blame McLaren and/or Alonso for this situation isn't particularly realistic or fair.

Honda is having issues in dyno correlation on reliability. And as Hasagawa points out correctly- he can't explain why they have these issues now whereas they didn't have them in 2016. That's their main issue right now, they can't move forward if they can't rely on their tools.

Changes between 2016 & 2017 for both engine layout as G-forces on track have been so big that I understand that it's really hard for them to pinpoint the issue. In hindsight 2017 wasn't the right year to make the huge structural changes they made and a Ferrari PU(2014 -> 2015) approach might have been better. With all the tech changes this proved a bridge too far.

It's a shame but this project is doomed. Expect Honda to lay low until the new PU engine format comes into play. And if that engine format is cheaper I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren decides to run their own engines by that time. With their road cars in mind, that's actually the only logic route to take (once the PU complexity is reduced).

[McHonda]

It's very likely true. Alonso always want's to look good. Everybody thinks, he is a god, because he himself says so and he uses ridiculous engine modes. Could be.

It's very likely as much utter nonsense as it sounds.

Thanks to that pesky thing called telemetry the only way it's possible is if both McLaren and Honda are covering up his "ridiculous engine modes" usage and coming up with fake failures to then back his story up.

So why on earth would Honda especially do that?. They enjoy the total humiliation it brings or something?.

Doesn't seem plausible in any capacity unless Honda have zero access to their own engine data and no access to the engine to check it after failures .

And how likely does that sound?.

[nzjrs]

Bang. Clunk. Agh.

Here's what I think, Alonso is just pushing everything, if it breaks it doesn't bother him because he's not even in the points. Understanding what fails can go a long way to making it better.

I think PU modes are determined by engineers, not by drivers. If so, are you saying Alonso ignore his engineers and always use a more aggressive mapping than he´s told to?

That's not what I was saying at least. Of course I'm not suggesting he is going rogue.

All things considered it might be a reasonable engineering decision to let Alonso run in a different mode to Stoffel, allowing him to thrash the **** out of the engine might keep him slightly happier and might provide some insight to honda (reliability differences from running in different modes).