2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[marvin78]

He was? From what data do you get that? Let's be a bit realistic and say the car was sometimes second best, sometimes best and sometimes a little bit worse (as I don't believe this "Alonso is a god" BS, I think that he is an outstanding driver but he couldn't beat physics and win races with a very bad car). Then you have the situation you could get (no one knows these things for sure) with McLaren and Mercedes. Why is that not comparable? I understand that you like Alonso very much. That's ok but a little bit more realism wouldn't hurt you.

Maybe you have a short memory or where busy looking at something else at the time but Ferrari produced a couple of dogs back in Alonso's time with them like the f2012 and let's not forget the F14. It's just that Alonso clearly flattered those cars like he's doing again with the underpowered Honda engine. Just look at where he's team mates were. A great car is easy to drive which brings the gap to your team mate down. Alonso can handle bad cars better. And I'm not the one who called him a God, that's just an old straw man arguement from people who dislike people giving him praise.

You always say that someone dislikes Alonso if he does not praise him. And I watched very precisely. The 2010 and 2012 cars weren't that bad, actually they where nearly championchip material. But that discussion is so off topic and so old that I don't want to get into it. I don't especially like or hate any of these drivers. I would not know how I could do that, because I don't know them in that way. I really would like to see the data your opinion is based on. But as I said, this is not the right place.

All I can say is that the situations are comparable and that I don't see Alonso in a McLaren Mercedes (which is a subjective opinion not based on any data but on things Alonso said earlier and that I interpreted).

[RedNEO]

a merc engine in a mclaren can beat a w0x car on any given weekend. I really dont see the logic of why so many beleive there is some glass ceiling preventing this from happening.
Mercedes engines are the same for all customers. Merc may get the updates earlier, but we aren't talking about 50 horsepower updates here. I dare say a mcalren with a good chassis, that is setup better than a mercedes can whoop it any weekend without an updated engine.
I've seen too many times in the past where williams have threatened mercedes occasionally, even with their vanilla chassis. Now imagine a more aggressive and tractive mcalren chassis?
Come on guys, i expect deeper analysis from you on this works engine thing.
Mclaren should grab the mercedes engine with both hands, and prepare to fight for a championship with it. Redbull can win with a lesser engine than a customer merc, so dont see why mclaren cant with the merc engine.

100 % right. People have forgot or just lie to themselves how good McLaren can be and take any opportunity to undermine them. I'm looking forward to McLaren getting Mercedes engines even more now so those people can be shutdown. Alonso will be on it and the lack of power isn't going to hold back the chassis anymore so prod can work his magic!

We don't know how much of the McLaren chassis performance is due to aerodynamic of Promodrou or because of the specifics of Honda engine. They claim that their PU is most compact and most lightweight from all PUs, so this should give them some advantage. In any case, the integration with Mercedes Pu will not be so straightforward.

I'd take my chances with a powerful slightly heavier working PU over one that struggles to get out of the garage and might (if your lucky) get you past the finish line before the podium interviews are over.

[Thunder]

So Stoffel should get the newer Spec PU too....
https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/stat ... 7549705216

[Sevach]

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... 8-f1-drive

I don't think he wants Honda engines...

[Phil]

a merc engine in a mclaren can beat a w0x car on any given weekend. I really dont see the logic of why so many beleive there is some glass ceiling preventing this from happening.
Mercedes engines are the same for all customers. Merc may get the updates earlier, but we aren't talking about 50 horsepower updates here. I dare say a mcalren with a good chassis, that is setup better than a mercedes can whoop it any weekend without an updated engine.
I've seen too many times in the past where williams have threatened mercedes occasionally, even with their vanilla chassis. Now imagine a more aggressive and tractive mcalren chassis?
Come on guys, i expect deeper analysis from you on this works engine thing.
Mclaren should grab the mercedes engine with both hands, and prepare to fight for a championship with it. Redbull can win with a lesser engine than a customer merc, so dont see why mclaren cant with the merc engine.

I agree with this, but then I also think that McLaren hasn't the team we know them as for a long time. Yes, their car might be better this year, but we are looking at it from a very shallow angle. Why does the chassis look so good? Because maybe McLaren are optimizing their car around the (little) strengths of the engine? It's just giving us a very warped idea. I have absolutely no doubt that McLaren have built a fine car, but how good that chassis is pure speculation in the context that we are comparing it with a sub par troubled engine.

If you change the engine, you're bound to change the packaging around it too. It's not as if the PUs are a lego piece all in the same dimension with the same packing and cooling requirements. These are highly complex parts - involving more than just a ICU. In fact, half the car (if not more) underneath the shell is linked to the PU or the PU itself.

Then we're back to what McLaren are capable of. Are they capable of beating Mercedes? Sure they are. But realistically? I'm not so sure. At the end of 2012, most people were thinking that LH made a monumental mistake of leaving McLaren who arguably had the best car or at least the WDC contending car for a team that very much struggled in 5th and 4th place. Then 2013 and 2014, both still using the same Mercedes engine, Mercedes trumped McLaren. More so than that, many high quality staff and engineers were absorbed by Mercedes. Since then, it's been a downward spiral for McLaren - losing sponsors and effectively money. Their biggest coup in my eyes was the aquisition of Peter Prodromou. Honda made sense (at the time) due to the large sums of money they were willing to invest. Arguably still does, in lack of a major sponsor.

Before McLaren has any chance of beating Mercedes, they have Ferrari and RedBull to beat and some very efficient midfielders in Force-India. Dreaming of beating the best for wins is IMO a pipe dream. They should first aim to be in the points, then to progress through the midfield on a regular basis before attempting to go "all in or nothing". It may have sounded attractive to the believers last year, but it's slowly becoming a pathetic dream considering they are not even at the point where they are in the points.

And with every penalty they receive for engine parts that need to be changed, they are further forced to start at the back and the chance of getting points even smaller.

[Andres125sx]

I really would like to see the data your opinion is based on.

Maybe on this

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2010/team.html

Can you point me to the last time someone fought for the title up to the last race of the season with a car wich was third in the WCC at the end?

That´s unbiased data

[Andres125sx]

We don't know how much of the McLaren chassis performance is due to aerodynamic of Promodrou or because of the specifics of Honda engine. They claim that their PU is most compact and most lightweight from all PUs, so this should give them some advantage.

Sorry but they never said that, only that 2017 Honda PU is more compact, lightweight and with a lower CoG when compared to 2016 Honda PU.

Also, both the weight and CoG are regulated in the rules, so the only way it can be better to any other manufacturer is if that manufacturer can´t reach the regulations, wich is hard to believe for both the Ferrari and Mercedes PUs, but who knows

[Lucky]

12 or 30?
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 86461.html

[etusch]

If someone assuming mclaren can do very good chassis to beat merc or ferrari with less power, I assume that Honda can build that less powered PU. But I have right to assume that with same way as You and except Honda to build most powerful PU. İf you say mclaren has good past I can also say somethings about it. Very Love merc? There is Mercedes team.

[marvin78]

I really would like to see the data your opinion is based on.

Maybe on this

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2010/team.html

Can you point me to the last time someone fought for the title up to the last race of the season with a car wich was third in the WCC at the end?

That´s unbiased data

No. I can't. But is that really proof for Alonso being so much better than others or could it be, that no one of the other drivers in Alonsos league where in that situation before? And with that situation I mean exactly that situation. That is impossible, I know. And that and the fact that we don't ever have all the facts, I stay sceptical because I cannot believe that someone is so much better than others. But it could be. We don't know for sure. That's all I say. Some people talk as if it was a fact, that Alonso is far above others. And that's simply not true. He could drive a Mercedes and loose against Hamilton and Vettel. That's all we know.

[Andres125sx]

If someone assuming mclaren can do very good chassis to beat merc or ferrari with less power, I assume that Honda can build that less powered PU.

=D>

[j.yank]

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... 8-f1-drive

I don't think he wants Honda engines...

He clearly doesn't want Mercedes engine, too

But asked if a switch to Mercedes would assure McLaren become race winners again, Alonso replied: "Not really, it will not change much."

[Andres125sx]

I really would like to see the data your opinion is based on.

Maybe on this

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2010/team.html

Can you point me to the last time someone fought for the title up to the last race of the season with a car wich was third in the WCC at the end?

That´s unbiased data

No. I can't. But is that really proof for Alonso being so much better than others or could it be, that no one of the other drivers in Alonsos league where in that situation before? And with that situation I mean exactly that situation. That is impossible, I know. And that and the fact that we don't ever have all the facts, I stay sceptical because I cannot believe that someone is so much better than others. But it could be. We don't know for sure. That's all I say. Some people talk as if it was a fact, that Alonso is far above others. And that's simply not true. He could drive a Mercedes and loose against Hamilton and Vettel. That's all we know.

Obviously any data can and probably must be read in context, but you were asking for objective data proving that point and that´s what I did provide. Now you can read it as you want, but the data exist.

[RS200E]

GPS data has shown that Alonso would have been 3rd in Canada if the car had the same power as the Mercedes.

We know that the McLaren would be further along it's already aggressive update strategy with a Mercedes engine.

I think people are getting the terrible job that Honda are doing mixed up with the great work McLaren have done with this car.

McLaren could very well beat Mercedes with their customer engine and I'm not sure the pessimism is warranted especially if you're a McLaren fan.

[kfrantzios]

GPS data has shown that Alonso would have been 3rd in Canada if the car had the same power as the Mercedes.

We know that the McLaren would be further along it's already aggressive update strategy with a Mercedes engine.

I think people are getting the terrible job that Honda are doing mixed up with the great work McLaren have done with this car.

McLaren could very well beat Mercedes with their customer engine and I'm not sure the pessimism is warranted especially if you're a McLaren fan.

Can we have a look at that GPS data?