Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[j.yank]

fP2 Alonso was running with the low DF rear wing. Vandoorne no!. That is the cause of speed trap diferences.

Even, Hasegawa said Alonso stopped the car just before to push best lap in FP2, so He didnt push the new PU.

We are discussing the race speeds, not the FP2 or FP1

[McL-H]

So I don't understand where people are getting this 2.5 story from all the time. Honda itself talks about Spec 3, not Spec 2.5.

Hasegawa said the PU they tested in Baku is spec 3.0, but he also said it´s not the complete spec 3.0 but only part of it, that´s the reason here in F1T people talk about spec 2.5

But now I don´t know if the PU they will use in Austria is the complete spec 3.0 or it´s the same they tested in Baku and people here call spec 2.5, as Hasegawa call it spec 3.0 even if it´s only part of it so, when he says both drivers will use spec 3.0 in Austria is that the complete spec 3.0 or only those parts they tested in Baku?

Ok, thanks, now I understand where this is coming from. PlatinumZealot might be right, that it is manager talk to give the impression Honda has big updates.

In that case, I think it are only the Baku parts.

[ArcticWolfie]

fP2 Alonso was running with the low DF rear wing. Vandoorne no!. That is the cause of speed trap diferences.

Even, Hasegawa said Alonso stopped the car just before to push best lap in FP2, so He didnt push the new PU.

We are discussing the race speeds, not the FP2 or FP1

Both... his question and reply were about the speed diff. of both engines which ran in FP1 only.

[j.yank]

fP2 Alonso was running with the low DF rear wing. Vandoorne no!. That is the cause of speed trap diferences.

Even, Hasegawa said Alonso stopped the car just before to push best lap in FP2, so He didnt push the new PU.

We are discussing the race speeds, not the FP2 or FP1

Both... his question and reply were about the speed diff. of both engines which ran in FP1 only.

Are you sure? Only because of the Hasegawa statements you decided that they ran test of the new spec only in FP1? Based on the real data I am claiming that this seems suspicious.

[loner]

well if Wazari hints are kinda reliable thats what i feel is the final target for Honda, going head to head with Mercedes but with more 1000 rpm while using the same amount of fuel like Mercedes

And why would that be an advantage? You'd make less power for the same fuel use.

look man iam not the one who rated Wazari at 454 ok , this is his quote

Food for thought: What if the new PU was expected to run at 1,500 RPM's on average higher than the competition and was actually designed to be more efficient at the higher RPM's? What if??? However certain vibration issues occurred at the higher RPM's??? Just speculation.........of course.

couple this with Hasegawa talk about taking risks and new technology for 2018 power unit and you will have a speculation, and if Mclaren decide to stop now Williams will harvest

[daren_p]

We are discussing the race speeds, not the FP2 or FP1

Both... his question and reply were about the speed diff. of both engines which ran in FP1 only.

Are you sure? Only because of the Hasegawa statements you decided that they ran test of the new spec only in FP1? Based on the real data I am claiming that this seems suspicious.

Again, what data are you looking at for the race, just the race speed trap data you posted? If so, as I said, Alonso was not running typical race pace throughout the whole race, the last several laps he was doing a few "glory" laps like he did a number of times last year when he wasn't fighting for points & wanted to have some fun. So he would run a lap or two far slower then normal pace & then a quick lap followed by another slow, etc. Therefore as I mentioned you can not use just this data to compare p/u's. From everything I have read/has been posted both p/u's that ran in the race were identical. If you want to get further lap info, see here:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/06/25/2 ... test-laps/

Edit: Alonso was also likely playing around with power modes when he did the "glory" laps while Stoff had caught up to Sauber after his pit stop but then was lacking the grunt to get by, so probably turned things down for an easy drive home. As for a tow with Alonso, maybe he got some from the faster cars that were passing him?

[Andres125sx]

dont care.. calling it spec2.5 or 3, and the next big update calling it 3.5 or 4.0... does not make more power....

what i care is.. whats in the update.. what issues does it solve, how much hp gain.. etc..

The other day someone from Renault, defending himself after he said Renault is not bringing any update, that media distorted his words because they implied Renault is not improving, and they´re improving even if not bringing any update. He said in Baku their PU, despite same spec, has improved around 2-3 tenths.

I guess with current PU with an engine, a motor, two generators and a battery mappings must be so widely complex only to optimize one single mapping (and they use several) they probably need some dozens of different software versions before getting all the potential from the PU. This has been true since electronics are used in racing engines, so now with these complex PUs the difference between first version of the software and version 5.0 must be dramatic. But not measurable in horse power as it had always been, now it´s deployment thougout a lap or a race what matters, and that´s much more difficult to compare, and that´s what we need to see improvement, a comparison with previous version wich usually was in horse power. Today that´s not possible, peak power is not that relevant, but for how long you can keep that peak power, or what power you can deploy constantly on a race, and no manufacturer will reveal that data so we can´t measure PUs improvement, as simple as that

But next race will show, so not a big problem, the truth always comes out

[BrunoH]

yes but they need a big hardware update.. im more than sure that they are not going to go anywhere even it its software patch number 500....

[Andres125sx]

In response to the question about Alonso's top speeds : Alonso got bored at the end and started playing around; lap at Stroll pace, then 4-5 sec slower than those around him, another fast, another slow ... don't think Stoffel was in any position to do that as he was chasing Saubers. I'm guessing (don't know for sure) that those speeds came from those laps.

So when you see Alonso doing some laps noticeably slower than usual while driving his McHonda to a 9th position in the straights of Baku, you think that´s because he got bored and distracted instead of thinking, for example, he was saving energy when possible to defend or attack when possible or neccessary?

[Andres125sx]

well if Wazari hints are kinda reliable thats what i feel is the final target for Honda, going head to head with Mercedes but with more 1000 rpm while using the same amount of fuel like Mercedes

And why would that be an advantage? You'd make less power for the same fuel use.

Just day dreaming as I have no clue about this, but... what if the looses you get from running higher rpm with same fuel are smaller to the extra energy you can extract from the mgu-h? Is that really out of question or it´s possible?

[BrunoH]

i guess he was gathering Data, so they can share with honda and say.. this is what it does under normal conditions.. this is what happens when we are harvesting above normal for extra push... and this is how much we can deploy at maximum with this engine if we were able to harvest at optimal and full ICE.. etc etc.. the ice consumes this much in this setting.. and that much on that one.. and so on.. and so on.... this way Mclaren also have data for what the hardware can do, or can handle... they are testing once they saw the wold not lose a postition...

[daren_p]

In response to the question about Alonso's top speeds : Alonso got bored at the end and started playing around; lap at Stroll pace, then 4-5 sec slower than those around him, another fast, another slow ... don't think Stoffel was in any position to do that as he was chasing Saubers. I'm guessing (don't know for sure) that those speeds came from those laps.

So when you see Alonso doing some laps noticeably slower than usual while driving his McHonda to a 9th position in the straights of Baku, you think that´s because he got bored and distracted instead of thinking, for example, he was saving energy when possible to defend or attack when possible or neccessary?

I would say that's exactly what he's doing, having some fun (as he did numerous times last year). Who was he saving energy to defend against, Sauber was ~29 seconds behind & he wasn't going to attack as Saintz was ~10 seconds ahead. And besides the time difference between some of his slow & fast laps was ~6 seconds, if your driving that slow for a few laps, your not going to be attacking anyone with all the time you just lost.

[godlameroso]

yes but they need a big hardware update.. im more than sure that they are not going to go anywhere even it its software patch number 500....

There's a few tenths still to find in mapping, yes they need a hardware update, but there is still a lot that can be done without major hardware revisions. Things like fuel injectors can always be improved upon and that's worth another few tenths always. There's always ancillary pumps that can be upgraded which can be worth a little bit, if you make them more efficient it may free up a kW or two, a bunch of small methodical changes can sometimes create a gain bigger than the sum of their parts. It also doesn't make sense to throw updates at the power unit and not improve at all like Renault is currently doing. It's better to develop things you know will bring a step forward both in performance and reliabiilty, you need both, and naturally takes longer.

[gruntguru]

well if Wazari hints are kinda reliable thats what i feel is the final target for Honda, going head to head with Mercedes but with more 1000 rpm while using the same amount of fuel like Mercedes

And why would that be an advantage? You'd make less power for the same fuel use.

Just day dreaming as I have no clue about this, but... what if the looses you get from running higher rpm with same fuel are smaller to the extra energy you can extract from the mgu-h? Is that really out of question or it´s possible?

There has been a lot of speculation on this subject. The evidence leans pretty heavily in favour of lower revs, ie if the fuel rate is fixed from 10,500 to 15,000 rpm, the best efficiency and therefor best power should be at 10,500. There are several reasons:
1. ICE friction rises rapidly with rpm
2. In-cylinder heat loss as a percentage of total heat released in a single cycle decreases with load (heat release per cycle). Heat release per cycle reduces as rpm increases from 10,500 to 15,000 since the heat release per minute stays constant over that rpm range.
3. The turbomachinery has more surplus power (available to the MGUH) at higher pressure ratios. If AFR is maintained at a constant value (assuming there is an optimum AFR for ICE efficiency) the highest PR will be at 10,500.

[Singabule]

Anyone have inboard view of Alo glorious run? I think rpm should be lower than charge mode and shift to 8th gear much faster. They run higher rpm to charge battery via H. And for Stoffel, i think he is not allowed to use such setting. The spec 2 engine also dont have qualy mode as merc Q3 because of reliability just not there yet