2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Squid]

I think Honda must find someone to work with but whatever it cost they must left mclaren. Redbul is more likely and more close to success

The expression for that is "Out of the frying pan into the fire!" no way, RBR would just yell and scream at Honda non stop.

Didn't Boullier say something like "We don't want to fight in the media like Red Bull and Renault"?
Masterpiece of irony too, Eric.

[Thunder]

They're still a good notch below the things RedBull said back then, and that was while they were winning Races with these "godawful" PU's.

[Vasconia]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDLeXNKXoAAiLGJ.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDLeWNYXsAIXoIG.jpg

Its finally the Honda PU doing its job?

[bauc]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDLeXNKXoAAiLGJ.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDLeWNYXsAIXoIG.jpg

Its finally the Honda PU doing its job?

No, this is in the race - meaning DRS and slipstream added to the total speed

[Vasconia]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDLeXNKXoAAiLGJ.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDLeWNYXsAIXoIG.jpg

Its finally the Honda PU doing its job?

No, this is in the race - meaning DRS and slipstream added to the total speed

Ahh that was too good to be real. Shame.

[Manoah2u]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDLeXNKXoAAiLGJ.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDLeWNYXsAIXoIG.jpg

Its finally the Honda PU doing its job?

No, this is in the race - meaning DRS and slipstream added to the total speed

that goes for EVERY car out there

[bauc]

Its finally the Honda PU doing its job?

No, this is in the race - meaning DRS and slipstream added to the total speed

that goes for EVERY car out there

Exactly, so QUALY speed traps and timing is the true representation of the pace not the race.

[McL-H]

No, this is in the race - meaning DRS and slipstream added to the total speed

that goes for EVERY car out there

Exactly, so QUALY speed traps and timing is the true representation of the pace not the race.

And even during qualy they could have had a toe.

[Phil]

no.. its like having Ayrton Senna in the car.. these kind of drivers are able to get up to 3/4 of a second against the standard f1 driver... thats what they are worth... and that in development money invested is a lot.. so the trade-off is a good one.
remember ayrton putting over 1.5 seconds in Monaco against Alain in the same car... !?

They used to. Back then, F1 cars were way more dangerous and unstable so the difference between a driver willing to go further and beyond limits meant that the difference between the drivers was exaggerated. Now days, F1 drivers are are lot closer due the nature of the sport and the cars being easier to drive closer to the limit with all that downforce and safety measures. Yes, on a rainy day, you will see some drivers willing to take more risk and hence create a bigger gap, but for the most part, I'm fairly certain that even racing 'gods' such as Ayrton would not outshine others in todays F1 like he did in the past.

[Manoah2u]

that goes for EVERY car out there

Exactly, so QUALY speed traps and timing is the true representation of the pace not the race.

And even during qualy they could have had a toe.

JUST like the rest of the field. cue in Kvyat and Sainz dispute.

[GoranF1]

i think what this team needs wright now is to Hamilton an Vettel to join team.

[Phil]

On paper it’s a good strategy,” team boss Eric Boullier told Britain’s Sky.
“If you can run a (different) engine for the time being until Honda is competitive, then why not? This is one of the various scenarios we may have considered,” he added.
Mercedes’ Toto Wolff said in Baku that the issue of McLaren’s 2018 engine supplier needs to be resolved by around the end of the summer.
Boullier admitted the decision is “a question of weeks” away.
Gptoday's news

I'm really not sure how this would work.

Both Honda and McLaren have taken a huge jump to be where they are. McLaren wanted Honda, it wanted to be a defacto works-team (or as close to one as possible) and they also used this opportunity for a very lucrative arrangement that would see Honda not only being an exclusive engine supplier to them, but also have them invest big amounts of money into the team and finance their star drivers salary. Figures peg this level of investment without engine R&D at $100 million per season.

That is very substantial anyway you look at it.

In other words, Honda has been financing McLaren's R&D and development with this investment. With this, they have aided and saved McLaren the humiliation of not finding a suitable title sponsor and settling for less [than what they deem it to be worth].

If McLaren ends this relationship, they are in for a rude awakening. They will not only have to come up with large sums of money to make up that loss, but also pay for future engines of another manufacturer.

Lets assume for a moment the above strategy of taking a year out of using Honda engines works and they decide to use Mercedes engines.

- Would Honda still finance McLaren as they do now?
- What happens after this year off? Will they be contractually obliged to use Honda engines again in 2019?
- Will there be performance clauses? How would they be measured? How would that contract be worded?
- What does Honda have to gain from such a year off?

This is a very problematic situation. Honda will supply Sauber next year, but Sauber is far from building a car capable of winning or even competing in the top 4. Any form of investment by Honda to make Sauber a more competitive team will take months if not years to accomplish. It will not come over night. This means that Honda's success as an engine-manufacturer would be limited by the quality of whatever Sauber builds for 2018. Assume Honda finally build a masterpiece of an engine that is nigh on par with both Ferrari and Mercedes. Even in a sub par car, that engine will not win races or compete up front.

Fast forward to McLaren using Mercedes engines in 2018. Lets assume moderate success, perhaps top 4. Would they want to go back to Honda in 2019 unless Honda build an absolute gem of an engine (that can't really show it's strength due to the Sauber car)? How would such a contract be worded?

My point being - Honda decided to enter F1 under very complex circumstances of being a works-team. They didn't jump in and buy there own team, they decided to team up with a very competent team such as McLaren. To make this happen, they were willing to invest heavily over the course of many years. Why in gods name would they continue to sponsor McLaren using a competitors engine and perhaps reach a critical level of success without them reaping anything off it?

They didn't join F1 to become a works-team with Sauber. And I don't believe they want to now. It's important for them to supply another team to get more intel on whatever they are building (and to a have a reference against McLaren), but IMO they are not willing to let that partnership with McLaren slip. There's too much on the line for Honda.

And I think Honda's refusal to let McLaren go just like that, is perhaps one of the reason why McLaren, Alonso and Co. are publicly slamming their engine supplier. Because McLaren has lost somewhat faith in the ability of Honda to build a competitive engine and is perhaps at a stage where they are willing to take their losses and leave as is, before their image suffers even more.

If McLaren finds a way out, I wouldn't bet on Honda staying in F1 much longer.

[bauc]

that goes for EVERY car out there

Exactly, so QUALY speed traps and timing is the true representation of the pace not the race.

And even during qualy they could have had a toe.

Yes, however the effect is not the same and that happens very rarely coz draves back off from each other in order to have clean lap. And also, in QUALY its not like in the race when you have a train of 3-4 sometimes 5 cars where the effects from the slipstream and DRS are quite more dramatic. Overall I know that we all want to hear good news from HONDA but its been 3 years now, almost 4 if you take into consideration the time when the partnership was announced and things have not improved to the level that needs to be in order for them along with Mclaren to be competitive.

[Manoah2u]

It's i think above all attacking Honda on a political level to push them into a corner or push them to work harder.
they're the only ones who will tell themselves to work harder, so Mclaren saying "work harder" won't work.

losing partnership to 'mighty' Mclaren to be left with the laughing stock of the field Sauber is not a postive step for Honda.
even less concidering Sauber will have a seriously bad chassis compared to Mclaren, perhaps even getting the 107% rule into play.

and then you'll have Mclaren getting a Mercedes engine and winning or podiums immediately. that will cause some serious brand image damage.

So Mclaren is now playing the political game by pushing Honda to concider that, to think about that possibility, so that Honda 'themselves' come to the conclusion
that they MUST work harder right now. They ALSO will lose their star driver Alonso like this, and will be left with completely unknown boring driver Matsushita (or however he's named),
and with supposed great driver VanDoorne who's as forgetteable as the print on a napkin.

So if this issue of 'temporarily' stepping into another manufacturer is REAL, than this means 100% sure that they will seperate from Honda to find another permanent partner.
if this is to mount pressure, then it is to get things done from the japanese. which is what i think is still the case.

either way, time is running out. for real. promises are done and dusted for. there is only left 1 thing; results. if those don't come; honda - mclaren will be a failure and will end permanently.
a shame for Mclaren. Drama for Honda as it will remind of pre-2009 AND also how Brawn spooned in a Merc engine and won everything in 2009.

Earth dreams Sauber for 2018.

[Redragon]

On paper it’s a good strategy,” team boss Eric Boullier told Britain’s Sky.
“If you can run a (different) engine for the time being until Honda is competitive, then why not? This is one of the various scenarios we may have considered,” he added.
Mercedes’ Toto Wolff said in Baku that the issue of McLaren’s 2018 engine supplier needs to be resolved by around the end of the summer.
Boullier admitted the decision is “a question of weeks” away.
Gptoday's news

I'm really not sure how this would work.

Both Honda and McLaren have taken a huge jump to be where they are. McLaren wanted Honda, it wanted to be a defacto works-team (or as close to one as possible) and they also used this opportunity for a very lucrative arrangement that would see Honda not only being an exclusive engine supplier to them, but also have them invest big amounts of money into the team and finance their star drivers salary. Figures peg this level of investment without engine R&D at $100 million per season.

That is very substantial anyway you look at it.

In other words, Honda has been financing McLaren's R&D and development with this investment. With this, they have aided and saved McLaren the humiliation of not finding a suitable title sponsor and settling for less [than what they deem it to be worth].

If McLaren ends this relationship, they are in for a rude awakening. They will not only have to come up with large sums of money to make up that loss, but also pay for future engines of another manufacturer.

Lets assume for a moment the above strategy of taking a year out of using Honda engines works and they decide to use Mercedes engines.

- Would Honda still finance McLaren as they do now?
- What happens after this year off? Will they be contractually obliged to use Honda engines again in 2019?
- Will there be performance clauses? How would they be measured? How would that contract be worded?
- What does Honda have to gain from such a year off?

This is a very problematic situation. Honda will supply Sauber next year, but Sauber is far from building a car capable of winning or even competing in the top 4. Any form of investment by Honda to make Sauber a more competitive team will take months if not years to accomplish. It will not come over night. This means that Honda's success as an engine-manufacturer would be limited by the quality of whatever Sauber builds for 2018. Assume Honda finally build a masterpiece of an engine that is nigh on par with both Ferrari and Mercedes. Even in a sub par car, that engine will not win races or compete up front.

Fast forward to McLaren using Mercedes engines in 2018. Lets assume moderate success, perhaps top 4. Would they want to go back to Honda in 2019 unless Honda build an absolute gem of an engine (that can't really show it's strength due to the Sauber car)? How would such a contract be worded?

My point being - Honda decided to enter F1 under very complex circumstances of being a works-team. They didn't jump in and buy there own team, they decided to team up with a very competent team such as McLaren. To make this happen, they were willing to invest heavily over the course of many years. Why in gods name would they continue to sponsor McLaren using a competitors engine and perhaps reach a critical level of success without them reaping anything off it?

They didn't join F1 to become a works-team with Sauber. And I don't believe they want to now. It's important for them to supply another team to get more intel on whatever they are building (and to a have a reference against McLaren), but IMO they are not willing to let that partnership with McLaren slip. There's too much on the line for Honda.

And I think Honda's refusal to let McLaren go just like that, is perhaps one of the reason why McLaren, Alonso and Co. are publicly slamming their engine supplier. Because McLaren has lost somewhat faith in the ability of Honda to build a competitive engine and is perhaps at a stage where they are willing to take their losses and leave as is, before their image suffers even more.

If McLaren finds a way out, I wouldn't bet on Honda staying in F1 much longer.

If the deal of Mercedes is for next year and Honda progress this year to Renault level Redbull will jump on it with nothing to loose and sve some Money.