Welcome to the *NEW* F1!

[mcdenife]

Perhaps you'd like to suggest a suitable and capable 3rd party vendor (with knowledge/experience of F1 requirements) that was not a supplier to an existing team before SECU.

[Conceptual]

Perhaps you'd like to suggest a suitable and capable 3rd party vendor (with knowledge/experience of F1 requirements) that was not a supplier to an existing team before SECU.

Nissan, VW, Chevrolet, Ford, Magarelli Martini(sp?) and the list goes on...

They could just as easily use their 2007 ECU's with a standardized programming interface that will not allow the TC integrations to be linked together via the code.

And yes, unless you have a better explaination as to how why Heikki slowed up and allowed Alonso to pass, I almost have to look to Briatore and his relentless desire to fluff Alonso's ego. Do you have a better explaination for me?

Chris

[mcdenife]

Nissan, VW, Chevrolet, Ford, Magarelli Martini(sp?) and the list goes on...

do you mean Magneti Marelli and do you know what suppliers the others use (ie Nissan, VW, Ford etc)? Marelli supplied Ferrari amongs others, so wont you have exactly the same problem if they were chosen supplier?

[Conceptual]

Nissan, VW, Chevrolet, Ford, Magarelli Martini(sp?) and the list goes on...

do you mean Magneti Marelli and do you know what suppliers the others use (ie Nissan, VW, Ford etc)? Marelli supplied Ferrari amongs others, so wont you have exactly the same problem if they were chosen supplier?

Not at all, simply because they would not have a conflicting interest in the operations of the teams' engines. I am sure it was hard for Renault to call McLaren and ask how to make it work, simply because McLaren is a direct competitor.

How much support do you think the other teams get from MES? Do you think they are free with their proprietary information knowing that MES will just report that info to the McLaren team?

At lest Magneti Marelli isnt owned by any F1 team, and I also believe that they supplied for several teams, not just Ferrari.

Chris

[Spencifer_Murphy]

My issues come with Heikki (managed by Briatore) letting Alonso by on the front straight. No one thinks that he was allowed by just to stroke Alonso's ego?

What difference does it make if Heikki is managed by Briatore? Briatore doesn't pay his wages, Mclaren do. Furthermore, how on gods green earth is Briatore meant to get that message to Heikki while he's driving?!

The SECU was bound to have these accusations no matter who made it. None one decent company with the required expertise and F1 experience could have made it without the same issues being raised.

Its not like Ferrari have never had this sort of advantage, in the Michelin/Bridgestone days all the front runners ran Michelin tyres (with the exception of the Scuderia) hence Ferrari lead the way on Bridgestone's development, resulting in an almost bespoke tyre. Where as the Williams', Mclarens, Renaults and BAR's had to put up with a compromised tyre design due to the wishes of four big teams (plus a few smaller) all pushing development.

Every year somebody will have some sort of small advantage over the others. That's just how it is, its no more or less fair/unfair than in other years.

The SECU is the same for everybody, nobody has an equipment advantage. Yes Mclaren MAY have an advantage in applying or using the ECU, but that won't last for ever, and frankly I see that advantage as relatively small - just like Ferrari's tyres a couple years back - and after the switch to a sole tyre supplier.

Swings and roundabouts in my opinion. What goes around comes around.

[Ogami musashi]

And yes, unless you have a better explaination as to how why Heikki slowed up and allowed Alonso to pass, I almost have to look to Briatore and his relentless desire to fluff Alonso's ego. Do you have a better explaination for me?

Chris

He did simply hit the limiter button by mistake! the onboard footage is aviable via youtube.

Just before the first corner you have to adjust the differential (kimi onboard footage shows that it is done every lap) or some other operations (he did the mistake while cleaning his visor)so ther's room to miss.


This is a mistakes simply, or esle why would heikki would have overtaken alonso before if it was to let him pass???

[Conceptual]

My issues come with Heikki (managed by Briatore) letting Alonso by on the front straight. No one thinks that he was allowed by just to stroke Alonso's ego?

What difference does it make if Heikki is managed by Briatore? Briatore doesn't pay his wages, Mclaren do. Furthermore, how on gods green earth is Briatore meant to get that message to Heikki while he's driving?!

The SECU was bound to have these accusations no matter who made it. None one decent company with the required expertise and F1 experience could have made it without the same issues being raised.

Its not like Ferrari have never had this sort of advantage, in the Michelin/Bridgestone days all the front runners ran Michelin tyres (with the exception of the Scuderia) hence Ferrari lead the way on Bridgestone's development, resulting in an almost bespoke tyre. Where as the Williams', Mclarens, Renaults and BAR's had to put up with a compromised tyre design due to the wishes of four big teams (plus a few smaller) all pushing development.

Every year somebody will have some sort of small advantage over the others. That's just how it is, its no more or less fair/unfair than in other years.

The SECU is the same for everybody, nobody has an equipment advantage. Yes Mclaren MAY have an advantage in applying or using the ECU, but that won't last for ever, and frankly I see that advantage as relatively small - just like Ferrari's tyres a couple years back - and after the switch to a sole tyre supplier.

Swings and roundabouts in my opinion. What goes around comes around.

Spoken as a true Fanboi, and not someone who cares in the least for honest and honarable competition.

I, for one, would rather see the teams compete on track, not win because of a FIA contracted spec unit.

Disgusting, to be perfectly honest.

Chris

[Conceptual]

And yes, unless you have a better explaination as to how why Heikki slowed up and allowed Alonso to pass, I almost have to look to Briatore and his relentless desire to fluff Alonso's ego. Do you have a better explaination for me?

Chris

He did simply hit the limiter button by mistake! the onboard footage is aviable via youtube.

Just before the first corner you have to adjust the differential (kimi onboard footage shows that it is done every lap) or some other operations.


I read that in another post, and I stand corrected!

Chris

This is a mistakes simply, or esle why would heikki would have overtaken alonso before if it was to let him pass???

[P_O_L]

Ive a hard time believing the ecu has anything to do with the engines blowing up. If that was the case more teams should have had the same problems. Also the fact Ferrari has tested so many miles without a hitch in terms of engineproblems tells me something different occured. Also the heat explanation seems far fetched. In bahrain the same heat was exeprienced and the cars ran without problems for 6 test days. If indeed it was the heat then more reason to sack all 900 employees from the factory and get real men working on the greatest team in F1. And its not the engines that im worried about most. Its the drivers. Massa is too erratic and being kept dry because hes jean todts son employee. Kimi is retained because he has such a huge contract. Well excuse me but schumacher made a whole lot less mistakes. Alonso is another who is a more clever driver and able to perform under pressure. Just think about last years european GP where he fought and won from that same massa.

[FLC]

Also the fact Ferrari has tested so many miles without a hitch in terms of engineproblems tells me something different occured. Also the heat explanation seems far fetched. In bahrain the same heat was exeprienced and the cars ran without problems for 6 test days. If indeed it was the heat then more reason to sack all 900 employees from the factory and get real men working on the greatest team in F1.

That is totally untrue. Ferrari enjoyed good reliability pretty much until the Bahrain test. They suffered plenty of problems there, at least in 3 out of 6 days, including oil leeks, hydraulics and other things.
Sacking all 900 employees is a bit radical not to say a joke, especially as we don't even know what exactly is the problem. It could well be a small part made by some other company or something like that. Have some faith if you're worried.

[P_O_L]

of course sacking all 900 personel is a joke and radical, but it gives evidence of my anger that such a high profile team lets itself down over such basic things as reliable engines. The single lap issue is not new. It has been there for almost 2 years. If you cant cure it, stop doing f1 and do something else, grow tomatoes or something. And while its true hyrdaulics and oil leaks spoiled some testing, never was any mention the engines itself where to blame. Only one engine failure wich was at the end of its life cycle and therefore i dont count it as faiure. SInce the engine regs where mostly frozen they prolly have invented other parts closer to the limit wich blew for some reason. Again if they failed because of heating problems the entire 900 employees should be sacked.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Spoken as a true Fanboi, and not someone who cares in the least for honest and honarable competition.

I, for one, would rather see the teams compete on track, not win because of a FIA contracted spec unit.

Wow, I'm suprised at how insightful your view of me is...as if you actually know me. Yes I am a fanboy - I'm a fan of F1. If you think I'm anti-Ferrari or something you couldn't be more wrong. I love Ferrari, and I'm a huge Kimi fan. I also like Massa but don't rate him that highly. Admittedly I disliked Schumi and Jean Todt though.

I for one - like you - also like to see the teams compete on track - hence my disgust for the whole spygate affair last year, and my disgust at the tyre debatacle at Monza in 2003, and the US GP in 2005, and the mass damper affair in 2006, and Jerez 1997, and Suzuka 1989.

I agree that the SECU is causing unrest, and I know why, and I can understand why, and if I was working or any team other than Mclaren (or if I was anti-Mclaren) I would be jumping up and down ranting and raving about it. BUT, I've seen similar things before (the tyres i meantioned before), I didn't make a fuss about that then, and so I'm not making a fuss about this now - because like I said, I see it as swings and roundabouts. Because in both cases I see the advantage gained as small.

If I was really a fanboy I'd be saying "The SECU is 100% fair and equal, and Ferrari had a big advantage last year with the switch to a sole tyre supplier." But I'm not.

Rather I'm being a bit less biased, in that I admit there is an advantage (in both cases) but the advantage isn't a huge deal. Because in both cases I see F1 as a sport the winner.

With the single tyre supplier I think we have a more leveled field, and with the SECU we have no TC, and LC etc.

I'm an F1 fan first and foremost, hence why i'm frankly not too fussed about it all. Its not like Mclaren are miles ahead of everyone else, is it? Ferrari are if anything FASTER than Mclaren, BMW aren't doing to badly either are they? What about Williams, if the SECU is such a disadvantage why have they gained half a second since last season?

Like I said, yes I have misgivings about the SECU (the smae misgivings you have - I just see them as having a significantly smaller impact than you do) I had misgivings about the sole Tyre supplier being Bridgestone, and the SECU's being made by a Mclaren owned company, but in both cases the advantage gained is small, and IMO worth dealing with if the drivers are actually driving the car, rather than playing a glorified Playstation game.

Ive a hard time believing the ecu has anything to do with the engines blowing up...

That's kinda what I was thinking P_O_L. FLC is right that they were reliable up until the Bahrain test, but that kinda fuels the argument, if you believe (like I do) that Ferrari ran their cooling a little to tightly and got caught out when temperatures soared on race day. Just bad luck on their part. I find it hard to believe the ECU isn't the reason for the engine faliures.

Finally, in a personal note I'm a bit offended with the "not someone who cares the least for honourable competition" comment. What in the hell do you think you know about me?! And how dare you judge me as a person based upon a forum post. I spent almost my entire time at school as a pretty good sportsman in Football, Rugby, Basketball, Cricket and as an amateaur boxer (outside of school) and as an excellent track athlete, I was lucky, but rather than take my place in the teams for granted as most otheres did I paraded around telling all the sports teachers how unfair it is that only the elite athletes get to represent their school, and how it's only fair that those less able get the chance to play on the sporting field by proving themselves in training, and that its not just about abiliy but also passion. If a first team regular doesn't show up for training, give his place to someone less able, but who cares enough for the position.

I got my wish, and once or twice got dropped for it. I didn't complain because I thought, and still think, it provided fair competition for a slot on the team. Now you tell me about whether or not I care for fair comepition or would you rather talk about other aspects of myself as a person based upon some frankly meaningless forum posts. THAT is disgusting to be honest.

If, in reality you did not mean to offend, then please accept my sincerest of apologies for the rant. I do not mean to offend, but I feel as if your post was aimed to attack the poster and not the post itself.

[Conceptual]

Please don't get me wrong either. I didn't say that the SECU caused Ferrari or anyone else to bow out of the race on Sunday. All I was pointing out is the fact that the development split between aero/chassis/electronics HEAVILY favor the McLaren team since they had to devote ZERO time to making the SECU work in their car. And what trouble they may have come across is much simpler for them to overcome since the design team for the SECU is only a few doors down the hall from the Car Design team.

In F1, when 900+ people per team are working 24/7, avoided problems are worth ALOT MORE than solving problems. Add to that the fact that almost ANY problem the team requires technical support for also requires them to divulge proprietary information to one of their competitors.

It simply comes down to the fact that the FIA made a VERY VERY VERY poor choice of manufacturer for this ECU by not going to an impartial third party like Magneti Marelli that has no vested interest in the outcome of the season. They also don't have the conflict of interest inherent with proprietary information, since MM doesnt own and operate a F1 team.

I have no idea how many of the 15 retirements are down to the ECU. I am not saying that one team or another would have done better without it.

I am saying that in a competition as precise as F1, wasting resources where your competitor does not have to is always going to hurt you. Those resources should be used for car evolution at this point, but it is being used for spec component understanding.

I wonder how many of the non-factory teams will be using the Merc engine in 2009? Since the Renault/Toyota/Ferrari customer teams cannot compete with the Mercedes engine when it comes to the SECU integration...

Chris

[Ray]

It simply comes down to the fact that the FIA made a VERY VERY VERY poor choice of manufacturer for this ECU by not going to an impartial third party like Magneti Marelli that has no vested interest in the outcome of the season. They also don't have the conflict of interest inherent with proprietary information, since MM doesnt own and operate a F1 team.

That I totally agree with and think that's the smartest and most logical thing I've heard about the SECU on this site yet.

[P_O_L]

I think you should not overestimate the impact an ecu has. It does not determine how an engine performs. It only controls ignition to some extend. The results also tell me the difference is neglitable. BMW wouldv got pole without kubicas error. Ferrari wouldv gotten pole and a 1-2 finish if these *&^%$(*^&$&^($ would learn you use those damn tyres over a single lap. Williams and red bull and Honda and Toyota seemed to have upped their game since 2007. Hel, even Renault doesnt seem to have much bad effects. Add to that most complaints (about performance deficit) go towards aerodynamics i think the ecu from mclaren should not be a problem. Thats coming from somebody who doesnt hold mclarens ethics in the highest regard, to put it mildly. Another factor would be if the cu would relaly cause much deficit, i think most other teamboses would cry to the moon and back and persuade dictator bernie to get someone else to provide these boxes. Damn i saw force indias small pitbox and thought:ïf it wasnt for bernie, mclaren would be cramped in that space.""