2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Sayeman]

Despite of having merc PU,Williams was behind of mclaren until bad pit stop. So Williams has nothing. Williams is going backward everyday and every month passed.

Yet they finished ahead and got the point, and two races ago got a podium. But that is not the point. What I'm saying is that they are stuck in this limbo of average results while mclaren are stuck on a roll of terrible results but have the potential for good results.

And how did this limbo for Williams started?
1. Lack of results
2. Leading to lack of sponsorships
3. Leading to lower prize money
4. Leading to lower budgets
5. Leading to personnel leaving
6. Leading to further lack of competitiveness
7. Leading to limbo

McLaren is in stage 4, soon going over to stage 5. Basically, Honda has already become McLaren's only option, while we all know Honda will not close the gap to Mercedes under these engine regulations. And what if in October Honda decides to leave the sport? Where does that leave McLaren? Exactly, with a Mercedes engine, being in the exact same situation as Williams is now. One-way ticket to limbo. Just great.. really great.

If Honda does decide to leave then i think they will have to honor the contract and pay Mclaren the whole 10 years worth of money, i mean the remaining years. With that amount of cash boost Mclaren wont be left in a bad state. Thats why Mclaren recently employed the public Honda shaming tactics so Honda breaks the contract themselves.

Besides Lotus had made some great cars despite being broke in the last few years. James key has been designing some great chassis at Toro-rosso despite much lesser budget. If Promodeu is as good as Mclaren says then he should be coping with lack of budget.

[ZakB]

Despite of having merc PU,Williams was behind of mclaren until bad pit stop. So Williams has nothing. Williams is going backward everyday and every month passed.

Yet they finished ahead and got the point, and two races ago got a podium. But that is not the point. What I'm saying is that they are stuck in this limbo of average results while mclaren are stuck on a roll of terrible results but have the potential for good results.

And how did this limbo for Williams started?
1. Lack of results
2. Leading to lack of sponsorships
3. Leading to lower prize money
4. Leading to lower budgets
5. Leading to personnel leaving
6. Leading to further lack of competitiveness
7. Leading to limbo

McLaren is in stage 4, soon going over to stage 5. Basically, Honda has already become McLaren's only option, while we all know Honda will not close the gap to Mercedes under these engine regulations. And what if in October Honda decides to leave the sport? Where does that leave McLaren? Exactly, with a Mercedes engine, being in the exact same situation as Williams is now. One-way ticket to limbo. Just great.. really great.

Stop acting like both teams share the same wealth, this is simply not the case.

[vantage87]

Honda 'confident we are closing the gap to leaders'
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/275205/1/h ... mpaign=rss

Honda's head of F1 project Yusuke Hasegawa says its latest power unit upgrade is closing the gap on its front-running rivals as the Japanese manufacturer confirms a 'Spec 4' power unit is in the development pipeline.

With a 'Spec 4' power unit in the works Honda is yet to confirm whether the upgrade will be introduced before the end of the 2017 season but with a year of experience with its new concept Hasegawa feels it can find stronger performance compared to its previous efforts.

“We don't stop developing, we need to keep updating,” he said. “Of course the performance and results are the most important things but it's all learning for the future too. Compared to last year we needed to modify the engine concept, but next year we will keep the same concept.

“It's good that we can use the same concept because this year's development and improvement is directly connected to next year. So that means we don't need to stop the current development, and from that point of view we have already started next year's design.”

[Manoah2u]

I expected as such.

I think the design or 'theory' for the engine is and was solid and potential, but they failed to do some calculations correctly, or simply overlooked some, which had the seriously undesireable result we all have seen by now. They've brought updates to solve it 'for now' it seems, and taking information as they go whilst 'correcting' that (initial) error.

I am very curious still though about the simplicity of Mclaren's floor and design. It's already a superbly well chassis, but i can't help but wonder whether Mclaren might be 'waiting' to use it to it's fullest potential with a capable engine. You could argue they could use ALL the help they can get now, but on the other hand, what if they have a double-decker-like gimmick or idea that they can still use, and don't want to risk running it this year with the horrible engine which would nullify that gimmick? With the possibility that it will get banned by the end of the year anyway?

I really hope that Honda will fix their issues this year and bring in a monster of an engine second to none, or atleast on par with the Mercedes engine, and then also introduce a highly innovative floor and supertight body that will dominate like the Brawn and Redbull did in 2009.

[RS200E]

I expected as such.

I think the design or 'theory' for the engine is and was solid and potential, but they failed to do some calculations correctly, or simply overlooked some, which had the seriously undesireable result we all have seen by now. They've brought updates to solve it 'for now' it seems, and taking information as they go whilst 'correcting' that (initial) error.

I am very curious still though about the simplicity of Mclaren's floor and design. It's already a superbly well chassis, but i can't help but wonder whether Mclaren might be 'waiting' to use it to it's fullest potential with a capable engine. You could argue they could use ALL the help they can get now, but on the other hand, what if they have a double-decker-like gimmick or idea that they can still use, and don't want to risk running it this year with the horrible engine which would nullify that gimmick? With the possibility that it will get banned by the end of the year anyway?

I really hope that Honda will fix their issues this year and bring in a monster of an engine second to none, or atleast on par with the Mercedes engine, and then also introduce a highly innovative floor and supertight body that will dominate like the Brawn and Redbull did in 2009.

Yeah you might be onto something. Basically can McLaren afford to put any more downforce on the car due to the lack of power. But wouldn't we have seen something extra in Monaco and would surely see something in Hungary next.

[McL-H]

Yet they finished ahead and got the point, and two races ago got a podium. But that is not the point. What I'm saying is that they are stuck in this limbo of average results while mclaren are stuck on a roll of terrible results but have the potential for good results.

And how did this limbo for Williams started?
1. Lack of results
2. Leading to lack of sponsorships
3. Leading to lower prize money
4. Leading to lower budgets
5. Leading to personnel leaving
6. Leading to further lack of competitiveness
7. Leading to limbo

McLaren is in stage 4, soon going over to stage 5. Basically, Honda has already become McLaren's only option, while we all know Honda will not close the gap to Mercedes under these engine regulations. And what if in October Honda decides to leave the sport? Where does that leave McLaren? Exactly, with a Mercedes engine, being in the exact same situation as Williams is now. One-way ticket to limbo. Just great.. really great.

Stop acting like both teams share the same wealth, this is simply not the case.

Not yet. But McLaren's budget was much bigger a few years back than it currently is. Stop acting as if McLaren is not hurt by the previous 4 seasons of bad performance, because it definitely is. They need results asap, but Honda isn't delivering. Staying with Honda for another year will lead to nothing (if Honda will even remain in the sport), changing to customer engines will not enable them to fight for championships either. McLaren is doomed either way at this point. Budget gets less every year. That's a fact. Johnnie Walker already reduced its sponsorship, will probably dissappear from the car al together. Mobil 1 left after decades of partnership. Sponsors are losing trust my friend. McLaren will always be my favorite team, first or dead last. But I will no longer fool myself by telling fairytales about how they will make it back to the top. That era has finished. Everything shows they are going in the same direction as Williams.

[McL-H]

I really hope that Honda will fix their issues this year and bring in a monster of an engine second to none, or atleast on par with the Mercedes engine, and then also introduce a highly innovative floor and supertight body that will dominate like the Brawn and Redbull did in 2009.

I really respect your optimism. But you can forget about Honda catching up to Meecedes this year. There are no indications at all, that Honda even has the potential of matching Mercedes in the future of this engine formula. 3 years, and it has brought McLaren nowhere but to the junkyard. Maybe for 2021, but I highly doubt Honda will still be around at that time. Current exposure is sadly doing their reputation a lot of harm.

[Manoah2u]

@Mcl-H Oh don't get me wrong, i don't think they'll be on par with Mercedes this year. By fixing their issues this year, i'm talking about having fully eliminated the core problems they ran into at the start. Honda did say after all there is no use in copying existing designs as it would only limit yourself to that design. They want something of their own, and to be honest, who can blame them?

Let's be honest here though, who really knows how long mercedes might have been working on that V6T engine and how many failures they ran into even before coming close to the 2014 engine changes? They might have had similar failures and finally got the light and found exactly what they're running now, which could convince Lewis to step in and go for it at Mercedes?

On one hand, Honda is 3 years behind Mercedes, but they actually could be a full 6 or 7 years behind if Mercedes slammed a bunchload of money at the project. It was definately worth it in the end, look at all the titles they hauled in, and all the engines they sell to other teams, with more benefit there too, AND all the revenue and positive exposure they get through that.

Honda no doubt stepped in 'too late'. Just look at Renault in 2014 and all the mayhem there. How easily that is forgotten! That's still the reason why RedBull runs TagHeuer branded engines, after all, AND look at the issues they are still having AND that they're still behind Mercedes. Only Ferrari seems to have come a good lot closer to Mercedes and still the Prancing Horse's qually mode is miles behind the Silver Star's.

[ZakB]

And how did this limbo for Williams started?
1. Lack of results
2. Leading to lack of sponsorships
3. Leading to lower prize money
4. Leading to lower budgets
5. Leading to personnel leaving
6. Leading to further lack of competitiveness
7. Leading to limbo

McLaren is in stage 4, soon going over to stage 5. Basically, Honda has already become McLaren's only option, while we all know Honda will not close the gap to Mercedes under these engine regulations. And what if in October Honda decides to leave the sport? Where does that leave McLaren? Exactly, with a Mercedes engine, being in the exact same situation as Williams is now. One-way ticket to limbo. Just great.. really great.

Stop acting like both teams share the same wealth, this is simply not the case.

Not yet. But McLaren's budget was much bigger a few years back than it currently is. Stop acting as if McLaren is not hurt by the previous 4 seasons of bad performance, because it definitely is. They need results asap, but Honda isn't delivering. Staying with Honda for another year will lead to nothing (if Honda will even remain in the sport), changing to customer engines will not enable them to fight for championships either. McLaren is doomed either way at this point. Budget gets less every year. That's a fact. Johnnie Walker already reduced its sponsorship, will probably dissappear from the car al together. Mobil 1 left after decades of partnership. Sponsors are losing trust my friend. McLaren will always be my favorite team, first or dead last. But I will no longer fool myself by telling fairytales about how they will make it back to the top. That era has finished. Everything shows they are going in the same direction as Williams.

Of course they need results as soon as possible, but I'm pretty sure they will be the 4th fastest team on the grid next year, with or without Honda engines. From that point it will slowly get better, they have shareholders that actually care about the team, which is also the reason why they started negotiating with other engine partners. But I wouldn't expect any titles or even wins in the coming two years.

[adrianjordan]

Stop acting like both teams share the same wealth, this is simply not the case.

Not yet. But McLaren's budget was much bigger a few years back than it currently is. Stop acting as if McLaren is not hurt by the previous 4 seasons of bad performance, because it definitely is. They need results asap, but Honda isn't delivering. Staying with Honda for another year will lead to nothing (if Honda will even remain in the sport), changing to customer engines will not enable them to fight for championships either. McLaren is doomed either way at this point. Budget gets less every year. That's a fact. Johnnie Walker already reduced its sponsorship, will probably dissappear from the car al together. Mobil 1 left after decades of partnership. Sponsors are losing trust my friend. McLaren will always be my favorite team, first or dead last. But I will no longer fool myself by telling fairytales about how they will make it back to the top. That era has finished. Everything shows they are going in the same direction as Williams.

Of course they need results as soon as possible, but I'm pretty sure they will be the 4th fastest team on the grid next year, with or without Honda engines. From that point it will slowly get better, they have shareholders that actually care about the team, which is also the reason why they started negotiating with other engine partners. But I wouldn't expect any titles or even wins in the coming two years.

Agreed. What's more, their shareholders are considerably better off than Williams' are...

[adrianjordan]

While I now think that Mclaren will stick with Honda, it strikes me that all the people suggesting that Mercedes won't supply them for fear of being beaten might be missing something.

There is a real chance that next season we could see RBR back in the title fight along with Mercedes and Ferrari. Perhaps Mercedes bosses would like to have Mclaren mixing it in their as well. It means that rather than a 1 in 3 chance of a merc powered car winning, it's a 1 in 2. Better if it's the factory team, but you can bet that they would prefer Mclaren Mercedes winning than Ferrari or RBR...

[ZakB]

While I now think that Mclaren will stick with Honda, it strikes me that all the people suggesting that Mercedes won't supply them for fear of being beaten might be missing something.

There is a real chance that next season we could see RBR back in the title fight along with Mercedes and Ferrari. Perhaps Mercedes bosses would like to have Mclaren mixing it in their as well. It means that rather than a 1 in 3 chance of a merc powered car winning, it's a 1 in 2. Better if it's the factory team, but you can bet that they would prefer Mclaren Mercedes winning than Ferrari or RBR...

According to the German media McLaren demanded some kind of paid works deals, so paying Mercedes for engines but receive full support. Mercedes has no interest in doing that and are only willing to offer the same support that Williams and Force India receives. So I don't know, these engines really f*ck*d McLaren, Red Bull and F1. Maybe it's better to stick with Honda, at least there is some potential to grow, although it will take time. Let's wait until October.

In a potentially illuminating insight into the reputed negotiations between McLaren and their former power providers, Red Bull chief Christian Horner has revealed McLaren boss Zak Brown told him he "felt like he was watching the same movie" - drawing a comparison to the Mercedes-Red Bull saga of 2015 when Horner's team also sought engines from Mercedes

[Mad]

While I now think that Mclaren will stick with Honda, it strikes me that all the people suggesting that Mercedes won't supply them for fear of being beaten might be missing something.

There is a real chance that next season we could see RBR back in the title fight along with Mercedes and Ferrari. Perhaps Mercedes bosses would like to have Mclaren mixing it in their as well. It means that rather than a 1 in 3 chance of a merc powered car winning, it's a 1 in 2. Better if it's the factory team, but you can bet that they would prefer Mclaren Mercedes winning than Ferrari or RBR...

According to the German media McLaren demanded some kind of paid works deals, so paying Mercedes for engines but receive full support. Mercedes has no interest in doing that and are only willing to offer the same support that Williams and Force India receives. So I don't know, these engines really f*ck*d McLaren, Red Bull and F1. Maybe it's better to stick with Honda, at least there is some potential to grow, although it will take time. Let's wait until October.

In a potentially illuminating insight into the reputed negotiations between McLaren and their former power providers, Red Bull chief Christian Horner has revealed McLaren boss Zak Brown told him he "felt like he was watching the same movie" - drawing a comparison to the Mercedes-Red Bull saga of 2015 when Horner's team also sought engines from Mercedes

Eddie Jordan suggested that Mercedes even controls Force India's race strategies..while we won't know for sure these things do happen between teams. Who says Mercedes won't try to control Mclaren?

[zeph]

At this point I'm thinking McLaren-Renault would be a good interim option. At least those PU's work, and even if they're a bit down on power, there is enough to finish and occasionally win races.

If McLaren's chassis is as good as people seem to believe it is, they'd at least be competing with RBR.

[GoranF1]

Mclaren is talking to Porsche.