godlameroso wrote: ↑17 Jul 2017, 20:48
As far as I know this is the area where Honda is finally getting to a respectable level, this is why I'm confident about what they can achieve. Things have to progress in a logical order, that's why it seems like they're lost, they're not clueless, there's a lot of brilliant engineers, they just need tools in order to express their skills.
People have short memories, they forget the stink that was raised by Red Bull in 2015 over what seemed to others as a step backward, only for them to take a giant leap forward the following year. Now it's Honda's turn to go through growing pains before they can take the next step. People want results yesterday, and think it's hopeless if they don't see the results in their unrealistic time frames.
The problem with all that is that Honda said the 2015 engine had good power 'on paper', and the 2016 engine they kept saying was a big step forward in power, I seem to remember them making statements like matching the power of the Merc 2015 on paper.
Quite aside from the fact that combustion is only one part of the engine and if everything else keeps failing it's rather irrelevant if the ICE is producing the required power or not, more power, more heat, higher exhaust temps, more to be harvested via the mgu-h is imo, likely to reduce reliability from the turbo.
We also don't know what Honda think is good power or a good step. The new combustion design could bring with it, 0.3 seconds a lap and still leave them 1.5 seconds short of where they need to be. At this stage I think it's entirely foolish to hear Honda say they think they have something good on paper and take that at all seriously. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 364 times, shame on me doesn't describe it. Honda need to stop talking about upgrades and how much they think they are bringing, bring the minimum second they need from a 'big step' and then say, we did it. Don't say "we think we have something really good coming", then bring 0.3 seconds, then have 3 upgrades in a row fail for one car.
As for comparing it to Renault, aside from the fact it's a completely different situation, the Renault engine wasn't remotely close to as bad as Honda, completely on a different level of bad. Likewise Renault have been involved in F1 consistently and had a recently good enough engine to win multiple titles, basically we have some level of belief that Renault can turn it around, Honda doesn't inspire that same confidence or belief that they can do the same. RBR in 2015 had 187 points, they were 4th in the title that year, they had only 4 retirements and 1 DNS, with 3 podiums...... half way through the season Mclaren have 8 retirements, 2 DNS, one points finish, 2 points and are dead last in the constructors.
If Honda have the kind of improvement Renault had between 2015 and 2016, then Mclaren will be looking at around 10 points in the constructors next year and going for 8 retirements in the whole season rather than half a season.
Red Bull created a stink because Renault were either going to buy a team or pull out of F1, they made a stink publicly to get Renault to decide, nothing else. RBR needed them pulling out and finding a new engine or they needed them to commit ASAP so they increased investment in the engine, they achieved the latter. Renault massively increased funding for the engine in 2016, have Honda done the same or is it the same team plodding along with no changes? Likewise RBR were competitive in terms of points, getting a decent championship finish, they just weren't competing for the title, they weren't anywhere near the situation Mclaren and Honda find themselves in, the comparison is utterly ridiculous.
