Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[drunkf1fan]

That's the same Story that is being told since 2015..... Others hit a ceiling, Honda catches up.... Yet here we are with Ferrari and Merc bringing *marginally* upgraded Engines that negate everything Honda brings.

Honda would actually have to make one of those big Steps for this to be come true somewhen.... I hope they do very very soon.

I hear what you are saying but we also know that the Honda 2015 engine design was flawed. 2017 engine has the development potential that was limited in the 2015 design. It's been unreliable as hell up to now but......keep the faith.

The problem there is, Honda doubled down after 2015 for the same concept because they were convinced it was an engine capable of achieving the required power. As I said back then and I'll say again now, when this engine achieves the required amount of power, then it's proven to be a good engine design, until then as with the 2015 concept, it's just Honda saying this has more development potential we have no evidence it actually does have good development potential.

We have no evidence that the current concept doesn't have a massive design flaw and ultimately by the time this engine is actually competitive there will be little to nothing in common with the actual engine out there. To be 3 seconds faster a lap we're talking about new combustion, different fuel, different mgu-h design, different compressor, different turbo and different cooling. I'm not a big fan of the idea that this or that design is good, when for it to become good pretty much everything has to change. I mean, if we exceptionally broadly speaking say the compressor outside the V is a concept and makes this engine have good development potential okay, but when every part needs to change before it becomes competitive I'm not sure on where thinking of it in those terms is particularly useful.

[Redragon]

For those who speculate about timings on Honda engine making.
Here there is an interview that explains so far the planning and making of 2017 engine.
https://as.com/motor/2017/07/17/formula ... 08183.html

[etusch]

Each engine manufacturer tends to commence real world testing with single cylinder test bed prototypes. That's sensible to test combustion patterns, heat maps, compression, swirl and flow aspects and get a good idea about the basic physics of the prototype cylinder prior to the expense and complexity of a full engine.

https://www.pitpass.com/59695/Yonder-Honda

[diffuser]

We are now at a stage in engine maturity whereby others can only now make marginal gains.

Honda still has big steps to take. Renault are potentially catchable with Oct update, then target getting close to Ferrari power by end of year. Merc is tougher for sure.

Honda may catch them one by one on performance level,but reliability will have to wait for years.The main problem is that Honda can't even think about 2021 rules,while others may already considering future concept.

How can you consider future concepts if they haven't decided what the concept is gonna be?

[drunkf1fan]

We are now at a stage in engine maturity whereby others can only now make marginal gains.

Honda still has big steps to take. Renault are potentially catchable with Oct update, then target getting close to Ferrari power by end of year. Merc is tougher for sure.

Honda may catch them one by one on performance level,but reliability will have to wait for years.The main problem is that Honda can't even think about 2021 rules,while others may already considering future concept.

How can you consider future concepts if they haven't decided what the concept is gonna be?

This is how people talk about Merc having a 'headstart' for 2014, it's nonsense. Every single team and multiple manufacturers are involved in the talks on the next engines. It's like 98% likely to be a v6 twin turbo with no mgu-h at this point, you can wait for official confirmation or you can start throwing ideas around a group of people put onto thinking about this now to get a headstart. THat is what Mercedes did, with the v6 hybrid again literally every engine manufacturer was involved in the discussions it wasn't just Brawn as some people like to imply. Before the final decision was officially announced everyone for a considerable amount of time thought it would be a v6 hybrid, the exact power level of mgu-k, the exact fuel flow levels, these things weren't in concrete but if you started throwing around ideas for a v6 using a mgu-h/turbo combination you could absolutely start the design process well before the finalised specs were decided.

Any engine manufacturer who doesn't have at least a small team of guys putting together some ideas for the next engines is missing out and falling behind.

[diffuser]

Based on this comment..." I think you touch on a very good point that we need to make sure that the technology that’s introduced in Formula One in 2021 is ahead of the road car world in 2021 and perhaps mimicking what will be in the showrooms in 2026"

Might be all electric PU. That is what i am shoping for ina car now.

Twin turbos are in cars now.

[alexa]

Honda may catch them one by one on performance level,but reliability will have to wait for years.The main problem is that Honda can't even think about 2021 rules,while others may already considering future concept.

How can you consider future concepts if they haven't decided what the concept is gonna be?

This is how people talk about Merc having a 'headstart' for 2014, it's nonsense. Every single team and multiple manufacturers are involved in the talks on the next engines. It's like 98% likely to be a v6 twin turbo with no mgu-h at this point, you can wait for official confirmation or you can start throwing ideas around a group of people put onto thinking about this now to get a headstart. THat is what Mercedes did, with the v6 hybrid again literally every engine manufacturer was involved in the discussions it wasn't just Brawn as some people like to imply. Before the final decision was officially announced everyone for a considerable amount of time thought it would be a v6 hybrid, the exact power level of mgu-k, the exact fuel flow levels, these things weren't in concrete but if you started throwing around ideas for a v6 using a mgu-h/turbo combination you could absolutely start the design process well before the finalised specs were decided.

Any engine manufacturer who doesn't have at least a small team of guys putting together some ideas for the next engines is missing out and falling behind.

That's what I'm talking about,you can sit and wait for rules confirmation,or head start right away ,and think about new layout for PU.That's why Honda will be in big trouble

[Soichiro]

Based on this comment..." I think you touch on a very good point that we need to make sure that the technology that’s introduced in Formula One in 2021 is ahead of the road car world in 2021 and perhaps mimicking what will be in the showrooms in 2026"

Might be all electric PU. That is what i am shoping for ina car now.

Twin turbos are in cars now.

Agree. At least the electric side of the PU needs to become a dominant part of the power generation/output.

[drunkf1fan]

Read up the thread on the new engine regulations, they've said repeatedly that cheaper and noisier were their primary concern, all electric is already there in Formula E, zero chance F1 will go that way anytime soon(way into the future maybe). As said, almost all talk is about twin turbo, you can still have advanced and less advanced twin turbo. They are intending to continue with mgu-k but no mgu-h which means limited power usage, a return to when it was called kers. Engine not reliant on it and more likely to be used on command for performance where and when you need it.

Electric only brings in very heavy batteries and, well, look at Formula E, they'd lose what 100-120mph in top speed, they'd have to switch cars 4 times a race to do the same number of laps, it would be a joke basically. The 2020 engines, regardless of how they try to spin them, sound like they will be incredibly uninspiring technology wise and a near certain significant reduction in lap speed compared to now.

Formula e cars are, iirc, around 850kg, the batteries are like 250KG of that and they can't switch them so they switch cars halfway through. The rules the first year(not sure how much they've changed) were 200KW for qualifying, 150KW limited for the race with another what 30kW as a overtake/KERS style option with limited use per lap. They lift and coast into almost every corner throughout the race, it's worse than any F1 fuel saving era I've seen by a mile. They are limited to 140mph for more than anything efficiency reasons, faster would mean lower distance and faster would mean heavier car because it would have to withstand higher speed crashes as well as much heavier battery to sustain such speeds. All electric cars aren't great for genuinely top level racing

[drunkf1fan]

How can you consider future concepts if they haven't decided what the concept is gonna be?

This is how people talk about Merc having a 'headstart' for 2014, it's nonsense. Every single team and multiple manufacturers are involved in the talks on the next engines. It's like 98% likely to be a v6 twin turbo with no mgu-h at this point, you can wait for official confirmation or you can start throwing ideas around a group of people put onto thinking about this now to get a headstart. THat is what Mercedes did, with the v6 hybrid again literally every engine manufacturer was involved in the discussions it wasn't just Brawn as some people like to imply. Before the final decision was officially announced everyone for a considerable amount of time thought it would be a v6 hybrid, the exact power level of mgu-k, the exact fuel flow levels, these things weren't in concrete but if you started throwing around ideas for a v6 using a mgu-h/turbo combination you could absolutely start the design process well before the finalised specs were decided.

Any engine manufacturer who doesn't have at least a small team of guys putting together some ideas for the next engines is missing out and falling behind.

That's what I'm talking about,you can sit and wait for rules confirmation,or head start right away ,and think about new layout for PU.That's why Honda will be in big trouble

Yup, Honda's issue all along is rather than working on some different design in a more normal design way, ie guys kicking around ideas and having time to test out theories and hone in on the right design. When they have a bad design they don't have time to spend ages coming up with the best mgu-h or turbine or compressor, they just have to make one that works better, so it's mostly trying to alter the existing one so that a reason for failure is eliminated. bascially having a bad engine means they are always chasing short term fixes rather than thinking long term and I've said I'm worried about where that even places them for 2020-21 depending on when the engines come. I don't see how this engine can be reliable of fixed before 2019 which means a majority of their resources in rush to fix mode rather than long term upgrades or new engine mode.

merc can afford to have a say half their resources on improving the current engine while the other half gets to work on the new engines because they are in a great position. It's why I think Honda need to get out of F1 even if only temporarily, stop wasting money chasing this v6 turbo, there is no payback for them, they might end up with 6 months in 2019 fighting for podiums if lucky but I doubt really competing for consistent wins despite spending so much more to get there. Pull out, get to work now on the next engines, come in with a full development program, fixed/updated dynos which can find these issues, bring in the right people and aim to come in for 20/21(whenever the engines come in) as hard as possible. They'll fix their reputation so much quicker, for cheaper if they do that. I think if they stay in F1 they'll only hurt their 20/21 engine and take even longer to be seen as competitive.

[Mansell89]

Is there a clear reason why Honda have not powered more than one team in the last couple of years?

When the regs changed in 2014, Merc were using all of that data from Works Merc, McLaren, Williams, Force India, which was monumental data at a crucial early stage.

With the pathetic limits on testing, not powering more than one team seems suicidal from Honda/McLaren.

[mrluke]

Is there a clear reason why Honda have not powered more than one team in the last couple of years?

McLaren's Ron Dennis explains Red Bull-Honda F1 engine veto
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122033

Which makes the recent article about Merc and Ferrari refusing to supply Mclaren all the more ironic.

Boullier explains McLaren desire for exclusivity

Boullier said. “The truth is, we wanted to work with Honda, Honda wanted to work with us as an official partnership because having an OEM official partner is the only way we believe to be world champion. If you are a customer of an engine manufacturer you can’t be world champion.

“So this is a privilege obviously we found, we brought in to Formula One and we don't want to share. That’s it. But I don’t want to comment any more.”

http://en.f1i.com/news/30984-boullier-e ... ivity.html

Or if we go right back to the start...published May 2013

McLaren expects Honda Formula 1 engine exclusivity for 2015

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh has confirmed that McLaren will have exclusive use of Honda Formula 1 engines in 2015 and that other teams may only race with the Japanese units "in due course".

"There is nothing in the regulations to say that an engine manufacturer must supply more than one team, so obviously we are looking forward to an exclusive relationship with Honda."

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107571

April 2014:

According to the F1 business insiders at Pitpass, Honda motorsport chief Yasuhisa Arai told a group of journalists at this past weekend's race in Shanghai that the deal with McLaren will be exclusive not only in 2015, but also in 2016. In other words, it won't be until 2017 at the earliest before Honda might begin supplying engines to any other teams, if at all.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/23/mcla ... f1-report/

The fact that Mclaren appear unable to provide a car that can consistently last a race distance let alone the disaster that was preseason testing exacerbates the already terrible lack of data with which to inform development.

[makecry]

Is there a clear reason why Honda have not powered more than one team in the last couple of years?

McLaren's Ron Dennis explains Red Bull-Honda F1 engine veto
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122033

Which makes the recent article about Merc and Ferrari refusing to supply Mclaren all the more ironic.

Boullier explains McLaren desire for exclusivity

Boullier said. “The truth is, we wanted to work with Honda, Honda wanted to work with us as an official partnership because having an OEM official partner is the only way we believe to be world champion. If you are a customer of an engine manufacturer you can’t be world champion.

“So this is a privilege obviously we found, we brought in to Formula One and we don't want to share. That’s it. But I don’t want to comment any more.”

http://en.f1i.com/news/30984-boullier-e ... ivity.html

Or if we go right back to the start...published May 2013

McLaren expects Honda Formula 1 engine exclusivity for 2015

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh has confirmed that McLaren will have exclusive use of Honda Formula 1 engines in 2015 and that other teams may only race with the Japanese units "in due course".

"There is nothing in the regulations to say that an engine manufacturer must supply more than one team, so obviously we are looking forward to an exclusive relationship with Honda."

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107571

April 2014:

According to the F1 business insiders at Pitpass, Honda motorsport chief Yasuhisa Arai told a group of journalists at this past weekend's race in Shanghai that the deal with McLaren will be exclusive not only in 2015, but also in 2016. In other words, it won't be until 2017 at the earliest before Honda might begin supplying engines to any other teams, if at all.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/04/23/mcla ... f1-report/

The fact that Mclaren appear unable to provide a car that can consistently last a race distance let alone the disaster that was preseason testing exacerbates the already terrible lack of data with which to inform development.

How the hell is that a fact? That's one of the most absurd statements I have read here. McLaren is not perfect, they have had their share of issues but Honda has been the one unable to provide McLaren with a reliable PU that last a race distance and almost every problem has been a direct or indirect consequence of Honda's incompetency.

[ronanharris09]

Both Honda and McLaren are struggling now, IMO.

[makecry]

Both Honda and McLaren are struggling now, IMO.

I disagree. Not the thread to discuss it but McLaren has produced a decent car. All of this becomes very complicated because of how underpowered the PU is . McLaren would be developing a car pre-season with a set numbers in mind, something think they will get from Honda, with Honda missing it's targets, a practically non existent pre-season testing,McLaren seems to be doing very well. They matched race pace of Williams and Force India in Silverstone of all places and that is a huge positive for the team. .