2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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Raleigh
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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Jano11 wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 18:42
FYI I have never called for any of engineers to be fired, I did however ask for the team principal to go when they failed several years in a row.
This heads must roll attitude is precisely why Ferrari is in it's current state.

Success is not something that happens overnight. Flashes in the pan maybe, taking advantages of other teams falling from the peak, but not consistent success.

It took Ferrari 4 years of patient steady building with nothing but the odd win or podium to show for it under the combined talents of Jean Todt, Ross Brawn and Rory Bryne to win their WCC, and 5 to get the WDC. This build up was rewarded with 5 years of dominance.

In turn, it took Red Bull 6 years to build up to their title year, despite having Adrian Newey for 5 of those years and the very capable management of Christian Horner. The result? 4 years domination.

Mercedes begun their championship build-up in 2010 with Ross Brawn, taking 5 years to win the championship. Again, this patience was rewarded, 3 years domination and perhaps more to come.

Formula 1 is not static, Ferrari have no entitlement to success just because they dominated the sport 12 years ago and spend a lot of money now. To compete with Mercedes on their current level Ferrari needs at least 4 or 5 years of consistent build-up without major personnel changes (add staff, but certainly not fire), every time they replace designers, technical directors, managers, Ferrari is resetting themselves back a year or two on their championship buildup.

Without building up the team to that level all Ferrari can hope for is Mercedes to trip and fall, leaving the path clear for a "good enough" team to take the title.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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I think one of the problems is that Ferrari wants wins 'too fast' because 'they're ferrari'. a season with no wins or podiums is not acceptable for Ferrari.
this shortsighted look demands compromises. instead of accepting a year off, perhaps even 2 and accepting somewhere between p3 or p4 and p8 and p9,
which would put a lot less of stress to the team and development of a single year, and reassign resources and funding on something for the long haul and
the room to build a stable environment from which a base is built to perform.

instead; NO! MUST.WIN.AND.PODIUM.

they throw loads of money on star drivers, which they then completely stress out and push to the snapping point 'because itzzz Furrraaarriizzz'.
they throw loads of money on top theoretic engineers, designers, and tech chiefs and put the same stress workload and demand on them. WINZZZ! NOW!
they throw loads of money to the FIA to get on a good foot and shout 'IF WE DONT WINZ WE OUT!' putting stress to every single possibility they find.
and in defense and against any form of criticism; 'We're Ferrari!' 'You're FIRED!'.

I've worked 10 years for an italian enterprise in the Netherlands with italian clients, and it is typically the italian way; too emotional. too 'agressive'.
Vettel's Baku move you could say is typical there, and fitting for some hothead italian that is offended over literally nothing.
No offense to the Italians, let that be clear though. It has it's charm on certain aspects but there are things where that doesn't work, and F1 is one of it.
Be proud of the Red, no problem there. But don't look through pink glasses.

I'm feeling bad for Arrivabene as he's clearly under a lot of stress and pressure and you can see and notice he's really a absolute top cool friendly bloke, but you can almost literally see the Sword of Damocles dangling above him.

I'm starting to feel it's Pierro Ferrari himself that is responsible for this. I must say that i'm probably hitting lots of shins here but every time i see him and see him talk i somehow slap my face in shame and something almost feel like he hasn't got them all in 100% condition; as in, does he actually have some mental disease? Thing is, Di Montezemolo and Domenicali got sacked, Mattiacci was put in charge for just for holding a seat warm, and personel got replaced profoundly and what's the result? no. change. at. all. So it can only be down to leadership and how the business is being run, and with the management replaced that can imho only mean the problem is higher up even. And i can't avoid but point the finger to an impatient hotheaded Piero Ferrari.

Say what you want, but Mercedes' approach works. That of RedBull did too, but they're short of a strong engine. Ferrari should take lessons there.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

Sonador
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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It is the burden of Ferrari's legacy!

You could see it with Massa, with Räikkönen, with Alonso and now with Vettel.
Maybe with Alonso you could argue that the mistakes Ferrari made that cost him dearly were to blame for the stress.

I think curently it is even worse, there seems to be a bit of a fear culture among the men and women who work there.
Really love Arrivabene as TP, he a cool guy but indeed under a lot of pressure, the guy has aged considerably when he took over from Mattiacci (also good guy imo)

Mercedes has got a lot of good people from Ferrari, and they seem to excel in that Mercedes environment.

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dans79
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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Sonador wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 23:55
It is the burden of Ferrari's legacy!
I agree, I think a lot of fans, and executive level management got spoiled during the Schumacher era, when the spent a long time at the top of the hill. I also feel they haven't been as competitive in the limited testing era as they were previously. To some extent that makes sense, because when you had unlimited testing, you could throw money at a problem to make it go away. Now, money is less important at the sharp end of the grid, because all the top teams are limited by the testing, cfd, and wind tunnel restrictions.
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Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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Jano11 wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 18:42
GPR-A wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 18:31
Jano11 wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 17:23


If I was a Mercedes fan I would also hope that Arrivabene stays! :mrgreen:
It's a pity if Ferrari has fans like you. Seriously.
Sure it is.
27 years supporting them through good and bad is a pity.
I will always support Ferrari for what they stand, however I will not support mediocrity, and certainly not from the same people making the same mistakes and failing again and again.

GPR-A wrote:
17 Jul 2017, 18:31
I am sure you are not alone and a clan of people like you have been existing since 2009. People like you demanded Aldo Costa to be fired, Luca Marmorini be fired, Stefano Domenicali be fired, Nicolas tombazis be fired, Nick Fry be fired, Neil Martin be fired, Hirohide Hamashima be fired and then Montezemolo be fired. It is widely believed that the new management of Sergio Marchionne pushed Allison out. What did Ferrari achieve really with all those firings? Now you are on to Arrivabene. It would not be too long before you demand Mattia Binnotto be fired. It has always set the atmosphere of fear with people who work. On the contrary, how many firings did you hear at Mercedes from 2010?

It shows the thought process (or lack of it) that exists in your brains. You people never believe in continuity of people and persistence in development of concepts.
FYI I have never called for any of engineers to be fired, I did however ask for the team principal to go when they failed several years in a row.
You need to fail before you learn how to do thing properly. Ferrari needs to stay calm and give time to Binotto because he is doing a good job.

munudeges
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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Vasconia wrote:
18 Jul 2017, 08:52
You need to fail before you learn how to do thing properly. Ferrari needs to stay calm and give time to Binotto because he is doing a good job.
Binotto does not understand this car, and my suspicions are growing as the season progresses. No doubt there will be some serious fallout before the season has even ended, probably by Monza. All the characteristics of this car at the start of the season that made it look very good, especially in races, seem to have gone.

I'm sorry to say that in typical Ferrari style they had a falling out with a Technical Director who would have conceived the current car, and to top it off that TD is probably the second best one along the pit lane and is now at their championship rivals. I'd go so far as to say they they might well have thought they were going to take his work and ride on it to victory.

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Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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munudeges wrote:
19 Jul 2017, 00:42
Vasconia wrote:
18 Jul 2017, 08:52
You need to fail before you learn how to do thing properly. Ferrari needs to stay calm and give time to Binotto because he is doing a good job.
Binotto does not understand this car, and my suspicions are growing as the season progresses. No doubt there will be some serious fallout before the season has even ended, probably by Monza. All the characteristics of this car at the start of the season that made it look very good, especially in races, seem to have gone.

I'm sorry to say that in typical Ferrari style they had a falling out with a Technical Director who would have conceived the current car, and to top it off that TD is probably the second best one along the pit lane and is now at their championship rivals. I'd go so far as to say they they might well have thought they were going to take his work and ride on it to victory.
I hope you are wrong but its true that it seems they are managing the tyres worse than at the beginning of the season(while Mercedes has improved on this area).

Spa and Monza will show if Ferrari can still fight for the victory. The updates they wil bring will mark the season.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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munudeges wrote:
19 Jul 2017, 00:42
I'm sorry to say that in typical Ferrari style they had a falling out with a Technical Director who would have conceived the current car,
Link Here...
James Allison admits that it would not be fair for him to take any credit for the development of this year’s car:

“I left Ferrari many months ago and joined Mercedes just some small number of weeks ago and anything that Ferrari has done for this year’s car is a credit to the people that work at Ferrari over these months and what they have delivered. Similarly, in the team that I’m in now, the credit for the fantastic performance of this team so far is down to all the people that have been putting in the effort at Brackley over those months.” – James Allison said, as reported by espn.co.uk.

CriXus
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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GP SILVERSTONE: the analysis of Ferrari problems
http://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2017/07 ... blemi.html

Google Translation:
After analyzing the GP at Silverstone in the previous post ( click here to read ) we go into the details and try to understand the problems that have faced men in Red this weekend trying to spigare because we have seen on track SF70H more "ugly "these first 10 rounds of the season .

After the British race yesterday what matters most and that worries all the Ferrari fans is really dull performance of Ferrari , never really able to fight on equal terms with the Mercedes W08 England. Neither in qualifying them as we could expect, nor in the race, where the great Italian car has always been able to make little difference on the weapon of the 2017 Anglo German Team in the first nine events of this exciting Formula 1 season.

In the preview at the Grand Prix in Silverstone we were talking about a Ferrari that was believed to cause problems the Silver Arrows on their home track but so was not. Speaking in Austria with one of the Top aerodynamics of the team from Maranello we confided that he thought the Silverstone circuit could adapt better to the characteristics techniques SF70H compared to the circuit Austrian Spielberg where, however, in the areas most driven, the second and the third, the SF70H remained very competitive compared to the W08 Hamilton and Bottas . The fast long corners would have to enhance the features of the excellent technical coach of the 2017 Italian Team . And even if Ferrari was still pretty fast in the fast corners, he again paid what for the past several weeks we continue to emphasize, that is a very important deficiency in aerodynamic efficiency point of view . And the confirmation after this tenth round there comes directly from the great protagonist of this season that Sebastian Vettel:
Mercedes I think has a very efficient car from the aerodynamic point of view. This season in 2017, especially on circuits like Silverstone, it's even more important to have a car with high aerodynamic efficiency because there are a lot of corners where we are no longer limited by the grip of the cars and have less drag (with similar levels of load aero) is so important to help the lap time.
Unfortunately, the 2017 project of the Italian team does not revolve around the very important technical parameter called "aerodynamics" , instead of the cornerstone projects in 2015, 2016 and even 2017 Team Anglo German. The SF70H took to the track to the Silverstone Grand Prix have always had aerodynamic structure more loads than those chosen by Mercedes (we have already said n times by now) while clocking a top speed just less than 2-3 km / h sign that the Italian Power Unit has always pushed so important especially in the crucial parts of qualifications or at least does not denote major shortcomings with respect to the power unit Mercedes. A more downforce trim maintained in part in the Grand Prix at Silverstone although Ferrari has tried to load it even further.

The Ferrari has chosen the more exhaust alignment of the three tested between the free practice 1 and 3 of the Saturday morning: wing spoon at the rear, T Wing single profile and a single monkey seat triplane compared all'assetto far more load tested during the first free (watch the photo above) who saw the adoption of two monkey seat and wing from high load average rear. A trim that as discussed above by Sebastian Vettel penalized enormously the aerodynamic efficiency of both SF70H. For the first time Ferrari has wanted to run with the advancement resistance levels closer to those of Mercedes, just also to minimize the technical concept from said Vettel and above but in doing so lost less on the straights but earned less (or even lost ) in the curve. Check out this interesting video ( thanks @gertigj ):

But what many are asking is why Ferrari has failed to be competitive on a plot in which the first part of the season was perhaps the best, ie in the fast corners. What was said now there has always confirmed Sebastian Vettel in pre Silverstone weekend:
Our car on tracks with many fast corners really okay. I think we can have fun. I can not wait.
In short, a Sebastian Vettel who had the same idea dell'aerodinamico FUnoAnalisiTecnica Ferrari with whom he had spoken over the weekend in Austria. But what did not work on SF70H Silverstone?

Rumors circulating in the Silverstone paddock on Friday, as we wrote in the analysis of qualifications, wanted a Ferrari penalized last technique directive sent by the FIA to Team who has forced the Italian Team to close the "knife" (or mobile deflector) in the initial part of the bottom of SF70H. A component that eye would seem unimportant to the aerodynamic purposes of the car but in fact helped to "seal" the outside of the bottom SF70H that adopt this year high rake angle structures. Without the "sealing" original for which it was designed to work at 100% the bottom, Ferrari has been forced to slightly decrease the angle rake on its SF70H to prevent significant aerodynamic losses. But this has however led to a pressure drop (smaller) to the rear that Ferrari wanted to recover by taking more charge wing. But such aerodynamic brought on track during PL1, as previously written, it did not work .

And the car easier to set up, what was clearly the most balanced even with the aerodynamic efficiency limits, what was the best on the Pirelli 2017, in the space of just two races seems to have lost these great features. Yes, because the first components to be affected by an aerodynamic imbalance given by a rear-end no longer so "perfect", to compensate mechanically (as long as there are unable), it is precisely the tires. The SF70H who took to the track in Austria on Friday and Silverstone were less balanced cars and a back less pinned to the ground to those seen in the early races. As if something had really changed after that new pre Austria Technical Directive (and that relating to the oil in the engine in pre Azerbaijan with a PU that pushes slightly less). The whole team had to work overtime to give Vettel and Raikkonen of competitive cars on the Sabbath. In Austria, the work was good also because of a track that could partially mask certain limits (as well as will be most likely in Hungary) but Silverstone is much more difficult, almost impossible.

In conclusion, at Silverstone I came out a little about the "limits" of the project Ferrari 2017 coupled to some restrictions during the season by the FIA . But if the red part of, has over pits the worst weekend of the season, from the gray one can say that it was the best; so be careful to think that the season is completely finished, with shotguns Mercedes easier from now on. Why have the two Team from Hungary could draw closer.
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” - George Bernard Shaw

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F1NAC
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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So it really hurts them to fix that deflector at the floor edges? I thought that flexing wasnt ideal for them

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godlameroso
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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So in other words Ferrari chased downforce at the expense of drag, and this has been obvious since the first race of the season. The Ferrari loses on the straights to Mercedes but gains under braking, and cornering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbDsFBsiW1Q

It's obvious here, but this trend has happened all season. The Mercedes has less drag, but not a lot less downforce, the high speed corners in Silverstone don't require a lot of rear wing. They rely more on the floor, bargeboards, and front wing, which gives them an edge in top speed. So while they lose half a second in the corners they gain a second through the full throttle sections.

The final 9 races of the season will either suit the Mercedes or the Ferrari.

Hungary: Ferrari
Spa: Mercedes
Monza: Mercedes
Malaysia: Ferrari, lots of high speed corners and not very long straights.
Singapore: Ferrari
Suzuka: Mercedes
COTA: Toss up
Mexico: Toss up(high altitude means low drag, and lots of low and mid speed corners suit Ferrari)
Brazil: Mercedes
Abu Dhabi: Ferrari, despite the two long straights, sector 3 is where you gain or lose the most time, and Ferrari have been very good at mid speed 90 degree corners as evidenced in Sochi.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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godlameroso wrote:
20 Jul 2017, 20:49

Malaysia: Ferrari, lots of high speed corners and not very long straights.
Like silverstone then ?
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godlameroso
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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Silverstone has long full throttle areas. From the start/finish line to turn 3, from turn 4 to turn 6, then from 7 all the way to 16 is all high speed very little breaking and lots of full throttle. That's where Mercedes wins out.

Sepang international circuit in contrast is more stop and go, the two DRS straights aren't very long, and both lead to very slow turns. The high speed turns are long and prevent a top speed advantage from exaggerating itself.

Remember that Ferrari, and Red Bull have won there the last 2 years, granted Hamilton had the race won last year until his engine gave out, and Ferrari lucked into a safety car, but still Rosberg had nothing, and Mercedes didn't have enough pace to catch Vettel in 2015. This year Ferrari is much closer than they've ever been and have a pure downforce advantage, therefore I think they have a shot there.

I may be wrong, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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iotar__
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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godlameroso wrote:
21 Jul 2017, 00:49
Silverstone has long full throttle areas. From the start/finish line to turn 3, from turn 4 to turn 6, then from 7 all the way to 16 is all high speed very little breaking and lots of full throttle. That's where Mercedes wins out.

Sepang international circuit in contrast is more stop and go, the two DRS straights aren't very long, and both lead to very slow turns. The high speed turns are long and prevent a top speed advantage from exaggerating itself.

Remember that Ferrari, and Red Bull have won there the last 2 years, granted Hamilton had the race won last year until his engine gave out, and Ferrari lucked into a safety car, but still Rosberg had nothing, and Mercedes didn't have enough pace to catch Vettel in 2015. This year Ferrari is much closer than they've ever been and have a pure downforce advantage, therefore I think they have a shot there.

I may be wrong, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
? - straights are long, "they lead to slow corners" - (without checking) yes, like every long straight ;-)? What else? It doesn't make it much of a stop and go track.
- "The high speed turns are long and prevent a top speed advantage from exaggerating itself." I agree, it's a balance of two long straights, weird first slow corners, high speed part, weather and tyre wear.

- Too early to dissect Malaysia, I'd skip all the other tracks and say they need (namely Vettel, Ferrari gave up on WCC before the season began) to win Hungary and Singapore, full stop. See what happens at Spa and at an odd track like Monza.
- Good start would be to be in front of Raikkonen in Q, no excuses to be behind in three out of the last five races. Can't complain about Mercedes after that.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team - Ferrari

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godlameroso wrote:
21 Jul 2017, 00:49
Silverstone has long full throttle areas. From the start/finish line to turn 3, from turn 4 to turn 6, then from 7 all the way to 16 is all high speed very little breaking and lots of full throttle. That's where Mercedes wins out.

Sepang international circuit in contrast is more stop and go, the two DRS straights aren't very long, and both lead to very slow turns. The high speed turns are long and prevent a top speed advantage from exaggerating itself.

Remember that Ferrari, and Red Bull have won there the last 2 years, granted Hamilton had the race won last year until his engine gave out, and Ferrari lucked into a safety car, but still Rosberg had nothing, and Mercedes didn't have enough pace to catch Vettel in 2015. This year Ferrari is much closer than they've ever been and have a pure downforce advantage, therefore I think they have a shot there.

I may be wrong, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
So what you're telling me is that it has a few fast corner sections (T5-T8 and T10-T13) that are something like Silverstone, then you have 2 straights with DRS that have big braking points at the end of them and 1 of thos straights has a hairpin leading on to it. It also has a lot of stop start corners with big traction zones.

If I didnt know better I'd say you were describing Montreal to me. So this Sepang circuit is a perfect combination of Silverstone and Montreal, so now I am really failing to see how Ferrari could be regarded as a favourite here.

How did Silverstone and Montreal go for Vettel vs Hamilton this season.

Anyway, its your opinion so I respect that. Lets wait until Sepang so see how it all unfolds.
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