2017 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, 14-16 July

[Sieper]

Ricciardo recovery was great, despite his early mistake going out of track. I think he´s not as fast as Max, but he´s light years ahead in terms of consistency. Ok Max suffered several mechanical failures, but even so Daniel looks more consistent.

I agree for the most part but the quoted part did raise my eyebrow, curious to know, how did you arrive at that conclusion? I think Max has been very consistent 5 (best of the rest) 3 (rain) 5 (botr) 5 (botr) 4 (botr and exploded tyre for Seb) all other races he did not finish 4 times due to technical problems completely out of his reach and twice due to a first lap crash:

Spain, he was free on the outside but bottas crashed into Kimi who crashed into Max (OK maybe too much risk by max here? I feel certainly Ricciardo wouldn't have taken that risk)
Austria, technical problems (clutch) would have cost him a DNF anyway but whilst he was free on the outside again this time Kvyat ran into Alonso who in turned was pushed into Max (no way too much risk by Max here).

In most (I think even all) of the races where he retired he was also en course for at least a top 5 finish and always in front of his team mate.

To me that seems super consistent and on a high level (above what the RBR 13 is capable of). Oh yeah, In Monaco RBR had to use Max to lure Bottas into pitting thus enabling Ricci to make the overcut (and sadly Max' undercut failing due to a poor pitstop, by the crew, not Max). So In Monaco Max was not best of the rest as Ricci finished before him. In my view this was a tactical choice by the team (a valid one) but viewing it as inconsistent by Max would be unfair.

Every race he seems to be best of the rest and all races where more was in sight his car simply stopped working (except for spain).

[Vasconia]

I was quite impressed that Vettel pushed Max off track so hard that he ended up leaving the track entirely himself...

Interesting that he didn't do the same thing to Bottas (neither bumped him nor pushed anywhere near so far). I wonder if Max has gotten under Vettel's skin a bit and he's trying to 'put manners on him'?

You have to be very aggressive to overtake Max, he wil be it for sure. He reminds me Senna so much, you can be faster than me but I will make you suffer if you want to overtake me.

[Phil]

I only just watched the race too (but knew the results beforehand).

Man, I feel gutted for Kimi. He was so down post race, especially his radio about "never having any luck". That's so true isn't it...

Just for that reason, I hope he gets to stay another year at Ferrari (or some other team that appreciates him more). He may be only in 5th in the WDC, but I think it maybe be a bit exaggerated due to the bad luck he has been in lately.

[komninosm]

https://youtu.be/lNk9c9ddSLw

I saw that, it's not a good angle.
Anyone got any others?
It looks like VET pushed BOT off track.

I'm sorry, perhaps you could do your own Google searches in future...

No reason to be rude.
I found a good vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Db_uT- ... l=FORMULA1
"2017 British Grand Prix | Best Onboards"
Vettel pushed both BOT and VER off track. He even hit VER, causing a collision and potentially fast-speed accident. He's becoming dangerous to the field with his red mists and FIA is not punishing him.
He should have been black flagged at Baku. Schumacher was black flagged (and lost all points all season) for less provable offense in 1997. It taints the championship...

[ChrisDanger]

Schumacher was black flagged (and lost all points all season) for less provable offense in 1997. It taints the championship...

Erm, I'm pretty sure Schumacher was trying to punt Villeneuve out of the race in order to win the championship. Vettel gave Hamilton a friendly nudge at safety-car speeds to say "f-you, buddy". The incidents are hardly comparable.

[siskue2005]

Schumacher was black flagged (and lost all points all season) for less provable offense in 1997. It taints the championship...

Erm, I'm pretty sure Schumacher was trying to punt Villeneuve out of the race in order to win the championship. Vettel gave Hamilton a friendly nudge at safety-car speeds to say "f-you, buddy". The incidents are hardly comparable.

friendly nudge??

[Juzh]

I saw that, it's not a good angle.
Anyone got any others?
It looks like VET pushed BOT off track.

I'm sorry, perhaps you could do your own Google searches in future...

No reason to be rude.
I found a good vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Db_uT- ... l=FORMULA1
"2017 British Grand Prix | Best Onboards"
Vettel pushed both BOT and VER off track. He even hit VER, causing a collision and potentially fast-speed accident. He's becoming dangerous to the field with his red mists and FIA is not punishing him.
He should have been black flagged at Baku. Schumacher was black flagged (and lost all points all season) for less provable offense in 1997. It taints the championship...

[Just_a_fan]

I saw that, it's not a good angle.
Anyone got any others?
It looks like VET pushed BOT off track.

I'm sorry, perhaps you could do your own Google searches in future...

No reason to be rude.

Then perhaps you should have said "thanks, I've seen that but was hoping for a different angle". Your post came across as dismissive and thus rude, hence my reply.

[ringo]

Vettel showing his true colours now. He has a lot of maturing to do as a driver.
Back in his redbull days people have called him complete and finished product, but he is actually being exposed now to real competition and real pressure. All in all it's fun to watch him get angry and curse. He is still really fast, and more often than not uses his speed to get up to the podium after a mid race fight with Max.
I look forward to seeing Max qaulify beside vettel, you can expect a fight and vettel finishing lower than his qualifying position whenever mad max is around.

[Hammerfist]

That really backs up my assertion that the Mercedes is great in the downforce sections.

Hamilton gains 0.15 seconds through Maggots and Beckets, and then continues to gain all down the following straight, due to a higher apex and exit speed.

Almost all of the time he gained in sector 2 and half the time he gained in sector 3 was due to being faster in Maggots and Beckets.


Not at all - all the time that the Ferrari gains is in traction out of lower speed corners, not in the high speed aero.

I think that it's worth remembering that if you had put Bottas' relative position next to Kimi's then you would've seen Kimi extending his lead through the lap and we would be talking about where the Ferrari is faster.

I've read a lot of clap-trap about the season being over and Ferrari being miles behind Merc but I honestly don't buy it. They might normally be around 3 tenths ahead in qualifying but maybe not even that. Hamilton pulled out a stunning lap over one of the longest tracks on the calendar where any difference in pace is going to be exaggerated. Bottas was 7 tenths behind hamilton and the two Ferrari's ahead of him. They'll be a lot closer in hungary for sure.

In the race, Vettel has regularly beaten Kimi this year by 10+ seconds so we have to see the gap to hamilton (before the tyre blow out) in this context. I also think that Kimi had to nurse his tyres through the race. A one stop was marginal so he would've had to be cautious. He would also have suffered more in the dirty air of hamilton in that first stint.

Then there's the tyres. Merc have struggled most when US tyres have been used. When they come back into the mix I expect Ferrari to be closer. The next track is shorter and the temperature much hotter so I expect Ferrari to be closer to merc. We should not ignore the driver in all this though - whatever peoples thoughts on hamilton that was a stunning qualifying lap. You could tell how special it was when Mark webber described it - he was thoroughly impressed. Hungary is a very happy hunting ground for him so don't be surprised to see hamilton up front in qualifying.

However, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see at least one ferrari split the mercs again and be stronger in the race due to the high temperatures.

That is all...

I agree with most of this except Mercedes struggling on the US. In recent races they have done fine on them with at least one car, so any difference should be down to set up rather than inherent in the car.

Mercedes seem to be doing rather well in recent races, but you certainly cannot write off Ferrari. The car is too good.

It's been a recurring theme for Ferrari the last 5 years though. Strong in the beginning and fade away at the end.
Their development ability has been well below par. Next thing you know, they'll have to fight to beat Redbull.

[Artur Craft]

He did it on tires that were blistering... I'm sure they could have cut it down dramatically on fresh rubber.

Pirelli tyres are always blistering or having problems, aren't they?

Anyway, Alonso did his lap with 22 laps old tyres. DRS artificially makes the current cars fast on QLF but, on the race, without DRS, they were just on the pace of a 2010 V8

Also, bear in mind that Silverstone has one of the highest average speeds of any circuit all year. That means that they're in the "all this extra wing is just extra drag" territory a lot more than at other circuits.

The high average speed also comes because of the fast corners where the extra drag wings massively helps. The race laps were indeed poor. Best lap marginally better than a V8 and, on this new Silverstone, power is very important out of the slow corners.

Anyway, the only reason a 2017 car got the record was because the track was different before 2010. On Hungary, they will be far from Schumacher's record of 1.19.0 which is even faster than his pole of that year(F2004 would do high 1.17 on low fuel QLF). And power is not even that much important on Hungaroring

[Artur Craft]

He said after the session that they can go through Copse flat but they scrub too much speed so it's quicker to lift and then power through.

He said: "You can take Copse flat in eighth but it is not necessarily quicker - you scrub a lot of speed off and the rpm drops off too much. I don't personally take it flat.

"And then Maggotts and Becketts; that section is on fire - Turn 10 is always flat, 11 has been flat for years, 12, from 2007 to now, you were letting off later and later and now you are on the gas into 12. Turn 13 (the final right-hander) is a fantastic corner because it is very bumpy, a lot of compression on the tyres and it is all about the exit.

What a priceless gem from Lewis

Technically, that's one of the biggest atrocities I ever heard, as far as logic goes. Lifting would mean "scrubbing off" even more speed as that scrubbing off only happens because of the load transfer compressing the outside tyres and massively increasing the rolling resistence of it. The more power you have, the more speed you'll be able to keep through such situation. What's next, will he say it's faster to lift through Eau Rouge because, that way, it scrubs less speed through that steep uphill?! (if reducing to 7th gear meant faster speed, or more torque, that has nothing to do with lifting)

The reality is that the track was completely dry already(1.26.6 proves it) and the Mercedes needed to take Copse with 30kph less than the top speed prior to it. And Hamilton needed a big lift, even bigger than on Campsa.

The 2006 Renault and the 2010 Red Bull were confortably faster on Copse and the only reason Lewis was matching Alonso's 2006 pole, (and slightly better than Vettel, on 2010) on Beckets is because they can run with all wheels over Maggots' curbs now and that gives a better entry into Beckets.

Post qually interview Lewis said Copse can be taken flat out but it then compromises your entry into the complex, faster to lift there then go flat out through the complex,

another gem. Copse is very far from the next sequence of corners. It has zero effect on the following corners, unlike Maggots.

Why can't some people accept the fact that Copse is impossible to be taken flat by the current cars?

[Moose]

Technically, that's one of the biggest atrocities I ever heard, as far as logic goes. Lifting would mean "scrubbing off" even more speed as that scrubbing off only happens because of the load transfer compressing the outside tyres and massively increasing the rolling resistence of it. The more power you have, the more speed you'll be able to keep through such situation. What's next, will he say it's faster to lift through Eau Rouge because, that way, it scrubs less speed through that steep uphill?! (if reducing to 7th gear meant faster speed, or more torque, that has nothing to do with lifting)

Eh - that's a completely bizarre statement to make.

Lewis is saying that if you were to take copse flat out, you're going to be pushed further left on the track, and as a result, your entry to the Maggots/Beckets complex is going to be compromised, causing you to scrub off more speed in the subsequent left hander.

Post qually interview Lewis said Copse can be taken flat out but it then compromises your entry into the complex, faster to lift there then go flat out through the complex,

another gem. Copse is very far from the next sequence of corners. It has zero effect on the following corners, unlike Maggots.

What on earth makes you think that that distance is sufficient to treat the two as independent corners?

The two are taken as one sweeping movement, not as one corner, then a short straight, then another corner. There's no point at which the car is stable between the two.

Why can't some people accept the fact that Copse is impossible to be taken flat by the current cars?

Probably because (unlike you), we don't think we know better how to drive a formula 1 car on an optimal racing line than a multiple world driver's champion.

[Artur Craft]

Eh - that's a completely bizarre statement to make.

Lewis is saying that if you were to take copse flat out, you're going to be pushed further left on the track, and as a result, your entry to the Maggots/Beckets complex is going to be compromised, causing you to scrub off more speed in the subsequent left hander.

Did you actually read what he said? He didn't say any of the stuff you wrote. You actually wrote something along the lines of Unc1eM0nty, implying that Copse compromises Maggots/Beckets which are far disconected to it

There is absolutely no reason to not go as fast as possible on Copse as it will not compromise the rest of the lap. Unless the car doesn't have enough grip and, by going flatout, the car goes too wide exiting Copse. But then, that would just prove that the corner cannot be taken flat by the car and keep it within the track. The 2006 Renault and the 2010 Red Bull could go faster and even used less of the track, exiting Copse, which just shows how the 2017 cars lacked grip there.

What on earth makes you think that that distance is sufficient to treat the two as independent corners?

The two are taken as one sweeping movement, not as one corner, then a short straight, then another corner. There's no point at which the car is stable between the two.

Copse is the right-hander, after Woodcote, with min speed of 282kph. Then there is a considerable straight until Maggots, Beckets and Chapel(the left, right, left, right sequence corners).

Probably because (unlike you), we don't think we know better how to drive a formula 1 car on an optimal racing line than a multiple world driver's champion.

Drivers say BS all the time. In all honesty, I think Lewis just misexpressed(if such word exists) himself. He probably meant to say other stuff than what he did. Perhaps he meant that going flatout would make him go wide in the corner and have a worse exit over curbs and,then, he would reach Maggots, Becketts part with less speed.

[Hammerfist]

Anyway, the only reason a 2017 car got the record was because the track was different before 2010. On Hungary, they will be far from Schumacher's record of 1.19.0 which is even faster than his pole of that year(F2004 would do high 1.17 on low fuel QLF). And power is not even that much important on Hungaroring

Last year Nico Rosberg got pole on a partially wet track, after allegedly lifting for a yellow flag and did a 19.9.
You don't think this year's cars will do a 19.0?

Pole will be deep in the 17s, maybe even a high 16, assuming it's dry.

Edited: I just realized you were talking about the race laps. In that case I agree; 1:21s at best.