Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[PlatinumZealot]

99% sure they will be free to TR with an option to buy the team in the future.

Smart. I see you are thinking way ahead in the future. There were a few rumblings that Honda want to be back in F1 as works team, so are you suggesting that buying Toro Rosso would be the way back in? Interesting, but how would RBR manage that? They would claim title sponsorship to maintain a presence then? RedBull Honda? Sort of a confusing name...

[kaepernickus]

Smart. I see you are thinking way ahead in the future. There were a few rumblings that Honda want to be back in F1 as works team, so are you suggesting that buying Toro Rosso would be the way back in? Interesting, but how would RBR manage that? They would claim title sponsorship to maintain a presence then? RedBull Honda? Sort of a confusing name...

Mateschitz has suggested a few times that he might sell STR at some point and reduce Red Bull's F1 package to one team.

[bill shoe]

Smart. I see you are thinking way ahead in the future. There were a few rumblings that Honda want to be back in F1 as works team, so are you suggesting that buying Toro Rosso would be the way back in? Interesting, but how would RBR manage that? They would claim title sponsorship to maintain a presence then? RedBull Honda? Sort of a confusing name...

Mateschitz has suggested a few times that he might sell STR at some point and reduce Red Bull's F1 package to one team.

STR does a good job, but they are missing lots of key infrastructure due to getting it from RB and/or Red Bull Technologies. They have no in-house capability to do a tranny, do they? Do they have their own first-class wind-tunnel?

They do have good continuity from year-to-year, but any buyer would have to view it like Mercedes when they bought Brawn: a multi-year project with lots of long-term planning and annual expenditure to move it up the grid.

I'm not against the business model where a team buys major components from other teams (Haas or Force India are successful examples), but it does seem to reduce the intrinsic value of the base team.

Who still makes their own transmission? Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Williams, Renault.

Who does not? Force India, Haas, Sauber, STR.

[ringo]

To me the sauber deal was cancelled not because honda pulled out, but because ferrari stepped in.
STR will continue with renault. Monishka had other plans in mind and now that she is out Ferrari decided to increase their footprint in the sport because of mercedes growing influence in the sport.
Mercedes has williams, force india in their pocket. Ferrari has only Hass. They could do well to have sauber as a team loyal to them. Renault has 3 teams in their loyalty too.
So basically we have 3 manufacturers with 3 teams.

[ZakB]

Smart. I see you are thinking way ahead in the future. There were a few rumblings that Honda want to be back in F1 as works team, so are you suggesting that buying Toro Rosso would be the way back in? Interesting, but how would RBR manage that? They would claim title sponsorship to maintain a presence then? RedBull Honda? Sort of a confusing name...

Mateschitz has suggested a few times that he might sell STR at some point and reduce Red Bull's F1 package to one team.

STR does a good job, but they are missing lots of key infrastructure due to getting it from RB and/or Red Bull Technologies. They have no in-house capability to do a tranny, do they? Do they have their own first-class wind-tunnel?

They do have good continuity from year-to-year, but any buyer would have to view it like Mercedes when they bought Brawn: a multi-year project with lots of long-term planning and annual expenditure to move it up the grid.

I'm not against the business model where a team buys major components from other teams (Haas or Force India are successful examples), but it does seem to reduce the intrinsic value of the base team.

Who still makes their own transmission? Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Williams, Renault.

Who does not? Force India, Haas, Sauber, STR.

If Honda wants their own team, which they don't and aren't allowed to as well, they will never buy an Italian team for obvious reasons.

[wuzak]

Smart. I see you are thinking way ahead in the future. There were a few rumblings that Honda want to be back in F1 as works team, so are you suggesting that buying Toro Rosso would be the way back in? Interesting, but how would RBR manage that? They would claim title sponsorship to maintain a presence then? RedBull Honda? Sort of a confusing name...

Mateschitz has suggested a few times that he might sell STR at some point and reduce Red Bull's F1 package to one team.

STR does a good job, but they are missing lots of key infrastructure due to getting it from RB and/or Red Bull Technologies. They have no in-house capability to do a tranny, do they? Do they have their own first-class wind-tunnel?

They do have good continuity from year-to-year, but any buyer would have to view it like Mercedes when they bought Brawn: a multi-year project with lots of long-term planning and annual expenditure to move it up the grid.

I'm not against the business model where a team buys major components from other teams (Haas or Force India are successful examples), but it does seem to reduce the intrinsic value of the base team.

Who still makes their own transmission? Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Williams, Renault.

Who does not? Force India, Haas, Sauber, STR.

STR make their own gearboxes, but share some components with Red Bull's.

[PlatinumZealot]

Honda is also a master gearbox maker. Yes, honda in japan i mean.

[bigblue]

I would be very surprised if Honda buy STR (if the potential engine supply deal happens), even a couple of years down the line. Just personal opinion, but they have enough on their hands with the engine, and running a team seems like a large additional risk and expense - the last time it took Brawn to organise things and finally bring success. Might be nice to design and produce a gearbox to go with the engine though.

[ziggy]

May I post this link one more time?

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... -revealed/

Once (if) the PU is ready, the car will follow. I only hope they get the PU on par with the others before they start another project, but I guess it was always the plan.

[ZakB]

Only with the latest 'Phase Three' development, introduced competitively at the Austrian Grand Prix in early July, has the Honda matched the performance level it had at the end of 2016.

Unsurprisingly, then, McLaren have been casting around for a customer engine deal. First it looked like they would get a Mercedes, but that chance has now gone, as has Ferrari. That leaves Renault.

No-one wants to see Honda leave F1, though, and the Japanese company are in talks with Red Bull about supplying junior team Toro Rosso.

Red Bull's motorsport boss Helmut Marko was not even bothering to deny this last weekend. "Let's see," he said, smiling, when I asked him whether Toro Rosso would have Honda engines next year.

Red Bull's strategy is clear - get the Honda in the Toro Rosso, the overall performance of which does not really matter, as the team exists to blood young drivers, and if and when Honda get their act together, switch it to Red Bull and become the Japanese company's works partner.

Helmut Marko
Red Bull's motorsport boss Helmut Marko has given nothing away on the possibility of a Honda engine in the Toro Rossos.
At McLaren, they have lost faith Honda can do the job. And while it might not seem such a bright idea to swap the worst engine in F1 for the second worst, and give up a net $100m a year in the process, performance-wise it might make sense.

The Renault is said to be 10-15kw (13-20bhp) off a customer Mercedes engine in race trim. The Honda is just over 60kw down (about 80bhp). That's a 60bhp power jump. Which as an average is about a second's worth of lap time.

That would have put Alonso on the second row in Hungary and the third row at Silverstone. And that makes selling sponsorship deals - all but impossible for McLaren at the moment - much easier. And it would probably be enough for Alonso to feel it was worth staying in F1.

McLaren are said to be optimistic a Renault deal can be done - and some senior figures also believe it is close. However, there are others who suspect that McLaren's Renault option will go the way of Mercedes and Ferrari - why, they argue, would the French manufacturer give engines to another team besides Red Bull who might beat them?

If that happens, McLaren would be stuck with Honda.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/40776162

[ArcticWolfie]

This is turning in a huge soap, if McLaren switches to Renault and STR to Honda would be damn funny if Honda blows everyone away in 2018 with a f*cking fast engine.

[ZakB]

This is turning in a huge soap, if McLaren switches to Renault and STR to Honda would be damn funny if Honda blows everyone away in 2018 with a f*cking fast engine.

I'm pretty sure they will blow.

[gofast182]

Like the article said, I cannot see Renault wanting to sell engines to more than one formidable team. They already have their hands full trying to compete at Red Bull's level.

Let's assume for a moment that the power numbers in the article are accurate and let's also assume "spec. 4" has the potential to deliver +50kW, as has been suggested. What would be the advantage to McLaren switching at that point? If they move up the grid either way, sponsorship deals become easier either way, and they'd still be a works team if they stay with Honda; it suddenly seems silly to change.
__________

Any word what spec. they're running in testing? I know many of us are hoping they finally get spec. 4 out on track and turn its promise into reality.

[ArcticWolfie]

This is turning in a huge soap, if McLaren switches to Renault and STR to Honda would be damn funny if Honda blows everyone away in 2018 with a f*cking fast engine.

I'm pretty sure they will blow.

Like the article said, I cannot see Renault wanting to sell engines to more than one formidable team. They already have their hands full trying to compete at Red Bull's level.

Let's assume for a moment that the power numbers in the article are accurate and let's also assume "spec. 4" has the potential to deliver +50kW, as has been suggested. What would be the advantage to McLaren switching at that point? If they move up the grid either way, sponsorship deals become easier either way, and they'd still be a works team if they stay with Honda; it suddenly seems silly to change.
__________

Any word what spec. they're running in testing? I know many of us are hoping they finally get spec. 4 out on track and turn its promise into reality.

Don't think they are testing spec. 4, it's too soon... but I guess they are testing bits & parts to finalize the spec. 4 design.

[Sasha]

Look at it with another view.

Honda is done with Loud-mouth disrespectful McLaren.
(to the Japanese...disrespect is the number 1 no-no)

Honda gives them free PU and 100 million a year.Would McLaren be that bad mouth to a title sponsor?
And 30 million a year to Alonso.

Honda Red Bull is looking better every day.World Champs in 2019?