Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Joseki]

Sassi has been fired by Ferrari, Honda should make an offer to him right now that he's free, he has the know how Honda needs.

[ziggy]

No.

Worse efficiency means less power.

Does it? If one ICE produces peak 600 kWh @ 1.25 km/L and another 595 kWh @ 1.5 km/L, which would you consider the more efficient ICE ?

I think if second one produce more exhaust gass more powerful spin at mgu-h causing more electric prodoction, it could be good but power income can be zero because of heavier fuel loads. I don't know

Exactly. We can't judge the ICE efficiency only. It has to be taken as a whole unit. Ie. one could make a super efficient ICE, but it will harm the MGUH production because of less exhaust gasses. And vice versa. So from my point of view it's pointless to talk about peak power. Sustained power is the magic word.

That said, these units can go well over 750kw peak on combined power, but the question is for how long? Temperature, wear, reliability, ... There are tens, if not hundreds of variables that need to go hand in hand and if only one is out of the circle, it can cause a chain reaction.

There is much talk about the ICE, CC, TC and so on, but i really miss the electrical part talk. In my eyes it is equaly important as the ICE part. Both are working in a closed loop, so you have to develop it all together, as a whole unit. I'm not even started to talk about the "electrical brake" and so on, which is also a substantial part of the PU.

[harjan]

What happens a lot in here that instead of focussing on the issue/problem, more variables are being thrown in to make the issue itself different and more complex.

If teams themselves state hard BHP numbers which they feel they lack in comparison to Mercedes, how come in here people state that comparison by peak numbers is impossible?

Yes, over a race distance more comes into place. Efficiency, harvesting, etc. But on a qualifying lap none of that matters (except for when you have deployment issues as Honda had in 2015 when they ran out of juice around laps like Spa- but those days are long gone).

Qualifying is about low fuel, max fuel rate, full batteries and flat out. And that's exactly what Horner and Bouiller use to make these power comparisons.

So in those conditions McLaren loose 0.9 second to Ferrari/Merc on engine alone at a power insensitive track like the Hungaroring. The issue this year is probably a bit emphasised by the much higher mechanical grip, because coming out of the corners you're far less grip limited than in prior years. So you're on full throttle earlier and longer, and of course there's the increase in drag.

Honda is the only option for McLaren to win a worldchampionship in the foreseeable future. At the same time Honda is the engine maker with the worst perspective to produce a worldchampionship level engine. And that's the 'catch 22' McLaren is in.

[ziggy]

Yes, over a race distance more comes into place. Efficiency, harvesting, etc. But on a qualifying lap none of that matters (except for when you have deployment issues as Honda had in 2015 when they ran out of juice around laps like Spa- but those days are long gone).

Qualifying is about low fuel, max fuel rate, full batteries and flat out. And that's exactly what Horner and Bouiller use to make these power comparisons.

I agree with you on the most on what you said. But there are these said variables and one of them is how much you can harvest in the lap. In WEC 8MJ are possible. And then theres MGUH to MGUK direct connection, which is unlimited. It depends on the track also. It was said last year that Mercedes is capable to directly "connect" MGUH and MGUK and others aren't...

[restless]

With fixed fuel rate its all about "max power from fixed amount of fuel"
So it goes down to burning as close as possible to 100% of allowed fuel. Once it burns you can try to "distribute" what part of released energy is used as "ICE" energy and what part is harvested from MGU-H

[Craigy]

Sassi has been fired by Ferrari, Honda should make an offer to him right now that he's free, he has the know how Honda needs.

Nope. He was promoted into FCA and is doing road cars now.
He still works for Marchionne.

[ziggy]

No.

Worse efficiency means less power.

Does it? If one ICE produces peak 600 kWh @ 1.25 km/L and another 595 kWh @ 1.5 km/L, which would you consider the more efficient ICE ?

I think you are being too subtle.

Obviously in conventional vehicle terms the second is more efficient. So efficiency in these terms is how the power is used to move the vehicle

For F1 efficiency is measured by lap time against fuel mass. (I haven't found a good metric for this, but it doesn't matter)

What wuzak is referring to is the power units ability to convert fuel to usable power.

Of course efficiency in lap time depends on how that power is mixed between ICE and MGU-H. And the further deployment of those two to achieve the best possible lap time. Equivalent to your km/L measure.

Most people on this forum don't make those distinctions. They are interested in "peak" power and fuel usage, "efficiency". They don't really make the link Wuzak does, let alone the complexities of deployment.

You are not helping people with their understanding when you, an expert, talk about "peak power" ( an earlier post), or offer confusing examples involving measures of efficiency that have no relevance to this F1 formula.

Obviously the second one.Well what he means with those figures is that with the 1,5km/L you get 5 KWh less, make more mileage and also you have to carry less weight (fuel). Depends on the calculation and the track. Unless we get the true numbers, it's nonsense to speculate about efficiency.

Afterall, are we talking about ICE or full PU efficiency?

[MrPotatoHead]

I think at the end of the day these power units and the way power is delivered / gathered / deployed are so complex that it's beyond the ability of the average reader here to understand by using just words.
Some nice graphs would go a long way here to show what is going on. It is a VERY complex situation. Honda could have the most peak power and still be slower over a lap if everything else is not what it needs to be.

All of this is why Mercedes are able to dominate in qualifying power at most tracks but int he race that does not play out over a race distance.

[diffuser]

the crankshaft torque does not propel the car - the torque around the axle does

the 18000 rpm 967 hp NA engine will provide the same axle torque as a current 10500 rpm 967 hp engine does
because the NA engine is geared correspondingly lower

What is this Black Magic you speak of!

Its A bs question comparing steak to celery sticks...

How much HP or torque would that V10 make on a fuel flow limiation of 100kg/h that the present PU have? I'd probably create more power in my twin turbo v6 lincoln MKZ.

[MrPotatoHead]

the crankshaft torque does not propel the car - the torque around the axle does

the 18000 rpm 967 hp NA engine will provide the same axle torque as a current 10500 rpm 967 hp engine does
because the NA engine is geared correspondingly lower

What is this Black Magic you speak of!

Its A bs question comparing steak to celery sticks...

How much HP or torque would that V10 make on a fuel flow limiation of 100kg/h that the present PU have? I'd probably create more power in my twin turbo v6 lincoln MKZ.

Well he wasn't technically wrong if you are just looking at torque at a specific rpm using his specific numbers.
The actual power units are far too complex to make this comparison though but his specific statement wasn't wrong, just a little misleading.

[diffuser]

Yes, over a race distance more comes into place. Efficiency, harvesting, etc. But on a qualifying lap none of that matters (except for when you have deployment issues as Honda had in 2015 when they ran out of juice around laps like Spa- but those days are long gone).

Qualifying is about low fuel, max fuel rate, full batteries and flat out. And that's exactly what Horner and Bouiller use to make these power comparisons.

I agree with you on the most on what you said. But there are these said variables and one of them is how much you can harvest in the lap. In WEC 8MJ are possible. And then theres MGUH to MGUK direct connection, which is unlimited. It depends on the track also. It was said last year that Mercedes is capable to directly "connect" MGUH and MGUK and others aren't...

They can all direct connect. The Merc just seems to be able to get the turbine to spin both the compressor and mgu-h with enough vigor that they sustain more power for longer periods of time.

[FW17]

In WEC 8MJ are possible. And then theres MGUH to MGUK direct connection, which is unlimited. It depends on the track also. It was said last year that Mercedes is capable to directly "connect" MGUH and MGUK and others aren't...

WEC harvests from front and they use motors that are rated at 400-500 hp, so they can harvest a lot through the 13 km lap.

In F1 the motors are in the back, the rears are generally have only a 3rd of the braking force and the laps are short.

F1 cars can get only about 2MJ (being optimistic) from brake energy recovery

[henry]

In WEC 8MJ are possible. And then theres MGUH to MGUK direct connection, which is unlimited. It depends on the track also. It was said last year that Mercedes is capable to directly "connect" MGUH and MGUK and others aren't...

WEC harvests from front and they use motors that are rated at 400-500 hp, so they can harvest a lot through the 13 km lap.

In F1 the motors are in the back, the rears are generally have only a 3rd of the braking force and the laps are short.

F1 cars can get only about 2MJ (being optimistic) from brake energy recovery

I believe only Singapore is likely to allow the full 2MJ to be recovered under braking from the MGU-K.

However there is also the option to motor against the MGU-K to get full energy capture value from the regulations, at least where the lap is not fuel quantity restricted, e.g. In qualifying.

Edit: as a for instance Brembo published 2015 prediction for Spa as having around 15 seconds worth of braking events. Even if the could harvest all 120 kw for every millisecond that's only 1.8 mJ. This year with similar top speeds, more downforce and drag, more grip and higher corner entry speeds that number will come down.

[ziggy]

In WEC 8MJ are possible. And then theres MGUH to MGUK direct connection, which is unlimited. It depends on the track also. It was said last year that Mercedes is capable to directly "connect" MGUH and MGUK and others aren't...

WEC harvests from front and they use motors that are rated at 400-500 hp, so they can harvest a lot through the 13 km lap.

In F1 the motors are in the back, the rears are generally have only a 3rd of the braking force and the laps are short.

F1 cars can get only about 2MJ (being optimistic) from brake energy recovery

Porsche is using an MGUH and overall a very similar tech as used in F1. Apart from weight ( F1 722kg, Porsche lmp1 875kg) and the K in front the system is similar.

But still we dont know, how much energy is possible to harvest from the MGUH. That's one of the big secrets.

[MrPotatoHead]

But still we dont know, how much energy is possible to harvest from the MGUH. That's one of the big secrets.

More than you think but less than you'd want